Sizing Softstarts

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We sized and ordered a softstart for a 250HP fan. Seemed pretty straightforward with no particular problems. Hopefully.

Same customer with different type of load. Pellet mill. 150 hp. The autotransformer start has not worked properly since installation in the late 60s and they now want it fixed. At times this motor is shut down with pellets in the die, multiplying torque requirements on restart. The softstarts we are using can allow for a brief application of 80% of torque at start. Will oversizing by 25% give me the needed torque? Is it that simple?
 
ptonsparky said:
We sized and ordered a softstart for a 250HP fan. Seemed pretty straightforward with no particular problems. Hopefully.

Same customer with different type of load. Pellet mill. 150 hp. The autotransformer start has not worked properly since installation in the late 60s and they now want it fixed. At times this motor is shut down with pellets in the die, multiplying torque requirements on restart. The softstarts we are using can allow for a brief application of 80% of torque at start. Will oversizing by 25% give me the needed torque? Is it that simple?

The "break away" torque required will be the deciding factor.
The torque needed to start the mill (as compared to a fan) could be quite large.....the kind of torque that you get with a cross line start of the motor.
If this mill is being used to shear the product, it could be upwards of 5-7 times the average running torque to even break away the drive shaft on the mill.
(This from my personal experience).

Doesn't sound like a good application for a soft start to me.

You could use a softstart to ramp up a flywheel, and then use the (kinetic) energy of the flywheel (w/clutch) to start the mill.

In my opinion, I doubt if a softstart will provide sufficient break away torque, unless it is greatly oversized.
That could get really expensive.

I would consult the softstart manufacturer and get their ideas.

Just my opinion
steve
 
I won't name names but a large maker of such devices does a very poor job of training their sales people on how to size them. They always seem to under size them once you get into expensive sized units.

My limited experience with fans is that you are better off going to the next size up. They tend to size right off the FLA charts, and often it seems the soft starts just won't start the fans using the selection from the chart.
 
Look carefully at the soft starter specs. There are no "rules" in that industry other than UL, which just states that it won't start a fire. Other than that, anyone can make a 'soft starter' to any spec they think they can sell, but as petersonra pointed out, some people don't know what they are talking about with them and just sell out of a book. Here is a list of what you want to look for in the pellet mill application:
  • Overload current rating: Look for no less than 500% for at least 10 seconds. Any less and it is likely undersized, which means the electronics will have a "crowbar" circuit to shut it down if you try to put out too much current for too long. They all have that in some form or another, but the ones rated for say, 350% for 30 seconds, will shut down too soon for you. If the manufacturer doesn't state the ratings clearly, they usually have something to hide. Oversizing by 50% or more can help, but then it is a commercial issue.
  • Look for a feature called "Dual Ramps". This means you will have an input (contact closure) that selects a second set of starting parameters than what is used under normal circumstances. Combined with the capacity mentioned above, you can then have a selector switch that says "Loaded Restart " and set up Ramp 2 to be Across-the-Line (or nearly so).
  • Make sure you have adjustable OL protection. Some manufacturers build-in the ability to have two different OL classes; one for starting, another for running. That way you can have class 20 or even 30 during startup, then it will automatically switch to class 10 during run for closer protection. The NEC allows you to even bypass OL protection during start if you demonstrate that it won't start without it, so some mfrs have that ability built in as well. Either one is a handy feature when trying to start difficult loads.

The "80% feature" (a.k.a "Kick Start" or "Pedestal Start") you are looking at is practically useless. Some manufacturer came up with this idea a long time ago and most other manufacturers followed suit, but if you read the specs that is usually limited to 1 or 2 seconds. Hardly long enough to do much useful work. The only thing I have ever seen that do good on was breaking ice that forms on shafts when something has been shut down in the cold.
 
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Can you monitor the amps during start-up on the pellet mill?
I would look at the starting amps to size te softstart and add in a additional capacity for starting with product in place.

Good luck!
 
Wouldn't a VSD with some sort of speed feedback be a better choice for this?

Or is the cost difference between a soft start and a VSD to much?
 
iwire said:
Wouldn't a VSD with some sort of speed feedback be a better choice for this?

Or is the cost difference between a soft start and a VSD to much?

Bob,

The starting torque on a VFD is normally less than 130% of running torque. A soft start normally allows starting torques of at least 300% or even higher.

EDIT:Starting torque is directly related to starting current and starting current is a multiple of running current. 100% starting torque occurs at the current drawn at 100% voltage which is often 600% FLA, so if the starting current is limited to 300% FLA the starting torque will be roughly 50% of that at full voltage.

Ptonsparky,

If your load is jammed, soft starting is usually not possible;for an extreme example, if you over size the soft starter by 3x you effectively get 900% starting torque which is similar to an across the line starter.

Why not include a full voltage bypass circuit for your special starting needs (this is similar to the dual ramp concept proposed by jraef) instead?


edit: clarification of values used.
 
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jim dungar said:
Bob,

The starting torque on a VFD is normally less than 130% of running torque. A soft start normally allows starting torques of at least 300% or even higher.

I am not doubting you just not understanding. :confused:

It was my understanding that dependent on the programing the VFD will continue to to ramp up until it moves the motor or we reach locked rotor current. :confused:

I once worked at a place with a large DC drive, the rate of acceleration would remain constant regardless of the ever changing load due to speed sensor feeding back to the drive.
 
iwire said:
I am not doubting you just not understanding. :confused:

It was my understanding that dependent on the programing the VFD will continue to to ramp up until it moves the motor or we reach locked rotor current. :confused:

I once worked at a place with a large DC drive, the rate of acceleration would remain constant regardless of the ever changing load due to speed sensor feeding back to the drive.

AC drives have a current limit, they do not produce an infinite amount of current. If you want more starting torque you need to oversize your VFD.

And yes, my previous post was slightly inaccurate. 100% starting torque requires the full voltage starting current of a motor (which is often 600% FLA), if the starting current is reduced the starting torque is also reduce by the same amount.
 
Actually, VFDs are usually a pretty good solution IF you have a need for variable speed. With a VFD you can get full torque without the extreme excess current because you are changing the voltage and frequency together, whereas a soft start changes voltage only.

To explain, lets look at starting Across-the-Line and with a soft starter. If you look at maximum output torque from a 3 phase Design B motor (most common type), that occurs at the point in which you attain the Breakdown Torque (BDT) of the motor and is about 220% FLT, but it needs to be at about 90% speed to attain that. So until that point is reached, the most you can get is Starting Torque, a.k.a. Locked Rotor Torque or LRT, which is about 160% Full Load Torque (FLT). But as Jim Dungar said, that requires you to apply Full Voltage and the starting current jumps to 600% FLA, which may cause a line voltage drop, which then reduces the output torque by the square of the voltage reduction. If you limit the starting current to, say 450% with a soft starter, that equates to about 75% current and therefore 75% voltage. So .75 x .75 = 56% of LRT, which means 160% x .56 = 89.6% of FLT. If you set the soft starter for 350% current limit it nets you about 55% FLT for starting. Hence the term "Soft" Start. That's why you need the "dual ramp" version if you occasionally want more starting torque under some conditions. By the way, yes an Across-the-Line rated bypass contactor would indeed provide MAXIMUM starting torque, but may cause the voltage drop problem described above.

With a VFD, you can attain FLT at almost* any point in the speed range and in doing so, the motor will draw no more than 100% FLA. Better yet, with vector drives you can make the motor put out BDT, so now that means 220% FLT at any speed, yet the current necessary to do so will be only 220% of FLA. So a VFD is actually BETTER at delivering maximum torque to a load at startup with minimal effect on the power system (as far as current draw is concerned anyway). The only big issues are that they can cost 5-8x the cost of a soft starter in larger sizes and if variable speed is not necessary, can also cost you a lot in operating losses. A VFD running at fixed speed is, at BEST, 98% efficient (usually less) and those losses are constant. So 250HP = 186.5kW x 2% = 3.73kW in constant losses, x 8hrs/shift x $0.15/kWh = $4.50/shift in losses, which comes to about $100 month. Still, if your power system is weak, it is sometimes the only choice that makes sense.

*Sensorless Vector drives can deliver FLT at virtually any speed, Closed Loop Vector can deliver at absolutely any speed, even zero speed. Non-vector drives start to lose torque control at speeds under 1/6 rated but can still usually outperform soft starters for starting torque.
 
The few drives I have done did perform better after running them through the setup process for providing constant torque. Augers & a plastic sheet roller.

I had thought about VFDs but this process has absolutely no need for speed control.

I surely do hope you guys understand just how valuable the information you share is to us with different experiences and skills.

Thanks
 
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