Small Appliance Circuits.

[360Youth]

This post is a result of the bar area post. How many small appliance circuits are required in a house. My understanding is just two. Those two must be present within the kitchen, but they can begin and end elsewhere (DRM, pantry, and yes, for me, I include most wet bars. Although, some would consider that a violation if, in fact, a wet bar is not a small appliance location.) Obviously, based upon proposed load, more is necessary, but not required. Correct? I usually end up with 3-4 (not counting dedicated equipment such as DW, Disp, etc.)

 

[infinity]

Two are required. You can install more if you like.

 

[bikeindy]

This post is a result of the bar area post. How many small appliance circuits are required in a house. My understanding is just two. Those two must be present within the kitchen, but they can begin and end elsewhere (DRM, pantry, and yes, for me, I include most wet bars. Although, some would consider that a violation if, in fact, a wet bar is not a small appliance location.) Obviously, based upon proposed load, more is necessary, but not required. Correct? I usually end up with 3-4 (not counting dedicated equipment such as DW, Disp, etc.)

I don't think that is a violation of NEC. I would suggest that it might not be the best design choice. We do a lot of basement finishes for remodle contractors. many of these basements have wet bars. As far as the electrical I am not going to tie in to an existing SAC I just run a new circuit and they get what they want and are willing to pay for. The contractors I work for know what to charge for the basics in their bid to the customer, there are many times that a customer wants more for some reason and if they are willing to pay the extra they get it. I always run more circuits than is required unless the customer is really really tight, we don't usually do work for those tight ___es anyway.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Those two must be present within the kitchen, but they can begin and end elsewhere (DRM, pantry, and yes, for me, I include most wet bars. Although, some would consider that a violation if, in fact, a wet bar is not a small appliance location.)

If the wet bar is not in a kitchen, pantry,dining room or "similar area", I would say it is a violation to extend the sa branch circuit to a wet bar. The Thread you are referring to had a wet bar in a basement. I do not feel that would be an appropriate use of the sa branch circuit that extends from a kitchen to a basement wet bar. The question really become what is a "similar area " and of course, that becomes the decision of the AHJ.
If you have 2 kitchens in the same house-- then I think you need a min. of 4 sa branch circuits for the 2 kitchens. I would bet you could not extend the sabc from one kitchen into the other one and only have 2 sabc. I know in this area that would not fly.

 

[360Youth]

If the wet bar is not in a kitchen, pantry,dining room or "similar area", I would say it is a violation to extend the sa branch circuit to a wet bar. The Thread you are referring to had a wet bar in a basement. I do not feel that would be an appropriate use of the sa branch circuit that extends from a kitchen to a basement wet bar. The question really become what is a "similar area " and of course, that becomes the decision of the AHJ.
If you have 2 kitchens in the same house-- then I think you need a min. of 4 sa branch circuits for the 2 kitchens. I would bet you could not extend the sabc from one kitchen into the other one and only have 2 sabc. I know in this area that would not fly.

You are correct. 210.52 (B)(3) says "no SA branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen." I completely agree that more is better. My question was pretty much moot, because most responsible ECs would add circuits to allow for load, there just seemed to be some confusion as to where the SA could go. The (B)(3) I refered to earlier is one, like you, I always "knew" but forgot the wording was there. I like this forum for the fact it making me look stuff up that I have not for a while. I wonder if I can log in my hours for license continuing education.:grin: :grin:

 

[allenwayne]

Our building dept. only allows one kitchen for one residence, to have another requires a special exception permit.But they allow ODK`S all the time.I guess they figure nobody will live outside.So again I ask if they won`t allow a second kitchen per say, but allow an ODK.Then it stands to reason that an ODK is not considered a kitchen at all.So is it required to be wired as if a standard kitchen ????

 

[electricmanscott]

I really don't see how there is any confusion as to where a sabc as defined in the code can be used. Extending them to a wet bar not in a kitchen, pantry, dining room, would be a violation.

What exacly would a similar area be? I don't know. Might be time to remove that wording.

As far as how many you are required to have? In the average home two. More times than not I would expect there to be more than two. How many is up to you.

Some guys here regularly say "I always have X number...." and list what they are for. My kitches are always different so the number of circuits vary as well.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Our building dept. only allows one kitchen for one residence, to have another requires a special exception permit.But they allow ODK`S all the time.I guess they figure nobody will live outside.So again I ask if they won`t allow a second kitchen per say, but allow an ODK.Then it stands to reason that an ODK is not considered a kitchen at all.So is it required to be wired as if a standard kitchen ????

I think many areas would see this as a kitchen and would need 2 sabc however your area may not. Quite frankly, I have only done one ODK and wired it with one receptacle on it's own circuit. It only had a gas range and hood and a small counter so really only one receptacle for the counter seemed necessary-- no fridge. I guess it technically is not an ODK since there is no fridge. Maybe the 2011 code will address ODK as the become more common. Until then the AHJ is in command.

 

[allenwayne]

I always dedicate circuits for ODK`S.To extend SABC from a kitchen is more trouble then it is worth.

 

[360Youth]

I think many areas would see this as a kitchen and would need 2 sabc however your area may not. Quite frankly, I have only done one ODK and wired it with one receptacle on it's own circuit. It only had a gas range and hood and a small counter so really only one receptacle for the counter seemed necessary-- no fridge. I guess it technically is not an ODK since there is no fridge. Maybe the 2011 code will address ODK as the become more common. Until then the AHJ is in command.

I would have to go with previously stated def.s of kitchen in 210.8 (B) as having a sink and permanent cooking, so if your ODK had permanent cooking, including a large fixed grill, then 2 SA would be required, but that is an opinion having not seen your situation.

For those that do consider wet bars SA, there is no basis to disagree, but I have done them that the only thing lacking to define it as a kitchen is cooking equip. Most cases, I would not include them on the existing SA so, as I said, it really ends up being a moot point, except, what do you do with the situation where a wet bar is just big enough to warrant 20 amp circuit, but panel space, or distance, would benefit tying it into an existing SA, would you feel comfortable doing it according to code. Safety and design is critical, but what exactly is a "similar area"???

 

[allenwayne]

I would dare to say that a similar area is what the AHJ determines it to be.Almost all the ODK`S I have done have a permenant means of cooking a fridge of some type and a sink.But the AHJ has never questioned the counter top spacing.Guess at some point in time this subject will be addressed.

 

[mvannevel]

I would think that the wet bar area could be considered a "similar area" to those listed in 210.52(B)(1). Higher end homes sometimes include an area known as a butler's pantry which usually includes a sink and a countertop area for food prep. Under the wording in 210.52, this area would be allowed on that small appliance circuit. I don't see that as being a lot different than the wet bar. That having been said, I don't necessarily think it would be a good idea to extend that small appliance circuit to a wet bar from a kitchen. Some of the wet bar areas I have seen are fairly elaborate affairs, just short of being kitchens themselves.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would think that the wet bar area could be considered a "similar area" to those listed in 210.52(B)(1). Higher end homes sometimes include an area known as a butler's pantry which usually includes a sink and a countertop area for food prep. Under the wording in 210.52, this area would be allowed on that small appliance circuit. I don't see that as being a lot different than the wet bar.

A pantry is already in 210.52 , thus if a wet bar is in a pantry it would make no difference in how you would wire the receptacles. They would have to wired as a small appliance branch circuit. The issue is more if the wet bar were in a different area of the house would it have to be supplied by the sabc. Would it then be considered a similar area. I say no but this is definitely a AHJ call. I would love to hear from some of our inspectors on this forum about how they would view this.

 

[LarryFine]

I can see a wet-bar not in, or attached to, a kitchen area as benefitting from its own circuit even more than one in such an area. When having a party, a hot-plate or crock-pot is a likely happenstance, along with the typical cocktail blender.

Swedish meatballs and pińa colada's, anyone?

 

[mvannevel]

Since the only mention of wet bars is the requirement in 210.8(A)(7) for GFCI protection within 6' of the sinks, this is going to be an AHJ call. Myself, I've allowed the small appliance circuit to be extended to a wet bar. As I said, I consider it to be a "similar area". I also don't believe there is anything that would force you to add these receptacles to a small appliance circuit or to supply a separate small appliance circuit or circuits to a wet bar.

Many of the ones that I see are fairly elaborate and fall just short of being a kitchen themselves. Wouldn't hurt to supply these with a couple of 20 ampere circuits. Others are simply a small sink and a short section or sections of countertop. These could go either way.

So, basically, unless this wet bar is actually a second kitchen, I don't think there's a problem extending a small appliance circuit to them. Just my take on the subject.