Small Commercial Job - Am I unreasonable here?

[sfav8r]

I normally do residential work. Recently through a string of referrals, I was asked to bid on a small commercial job.

There was no design other than a rough sketch from the GC. One of the rooms in this bldg. will house 6 pieces of equipment that are never used at the same time.

The client, via the GC, requested that I bid on running "a few" circuits to service 6 220v, 30a twist-lock receptacles. Each receptacle would have an additional 120v duplex receptacle next to it fed off the same circuit.

My first concern (of many) is that nobody seems to have a clue what the actual equipment specs are. They do know that the existing installation has 30a circuits and everything is AOK. They do not know for sure if the current installation has dedicated circuits for each equipment, but they don't think it does.

I proposed that instead of doing it their way, I install a suppanel in the room, run 6 individual circuits to each piece of equipment with a disconnect, and run two 20a circuits to service the 120v outlets.

I just don't like the idea of picking up 120v off of one leg of a circuit that is running machinery that has a motor. Will they plug a computer into that 120v outlet?

They didn't seem too happy (I assume they think it will be considerably more expensive) with my suggestion.

I eventually told them that it would be inappropriate for me to do what they were asking without having a better understanding of the equipment requirements.

I left with the suggestion that I would estimate it both ways so they could see it wouldn't be that dramatic of a difference. But honestly, without more info. on the equipment, I don't think I would do i their way.

I know I could "just do what they want", but I think the potential for them ending up with an installation that wont get the job done is too high.

Any thoughts from you guys that have done more commercial work?

Thanks.

[ July 20, 2005, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: sfav8r ]

 

[redfish]

Re: Small Commercial Job - Am I unreasonable here?

Keep the 220 and the 120 separate. If you were wiring a house, would you feed the washer outlet from the dryer outlet? of course you wouldn't. If you are the one responsible for bidding the job, then bid so you can do the job right and still make some money. Don't put your good reputation on the line just to get the job.Good luck.

 

[hbiss]

Re: Small Commercial Job - Am I unreasonable here?

How would you supply the 120V duplex receptacles off the 30A circuits anyway?

-Hal

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: Small Commercial Job - Am I unreasonable here?

You are right to be concerned. Don't do it their way.

 

[highkvoltage]

Re: Small Commercial Job - Am I unreasonable here?

Bid what they want and keep coming back as needed. If you do their way several things will occur.
1) They are happy. They got their way.
2) You are happy you made money.
3) You are happy again because they now need work orders and you are doing them T&M!!!!!!!!
4) You are unhappy because your lips are chapped from whisling to the bank.

You are in this to make money. The only way to make money is keep you'll customers happy.

 

[domnic]

Re: Small Commercial Job - Am I unreasonable here?

your in over your head.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Small Commercial Job - Am I unreasonable here?

How are you going to feed a 110 duplex (15 or 20 amp?) from a 220v 30 amp receptacle? You are the electrician. It is your responsibility to do it the right way not their way. If they don't understand that then walk away.

 

[iwire]

Re: Small Commercial Job - Am I unreasonable here?

Originally posted by sfav8r:
The client, via the GC, requested that I bid on running "a few" circuits to service 6 220v, 30a twist-lock receptacles. Each receptacle would have an additional 120v duplex receptacle next to it fed off the same circuit............................................I just don't like the idea of picking up 120v off of one leg of a circuit that is running machinery that has a motor.

I agree with the others that put you in charge. Your the professional, you have to tell them what is allowed by code.

IMO, you also should give them options that you may not like.

Code wise there are ways you could use one side of 208 - 240 to feed 120 volt outlets.

Is it a good design?

IMO no, but if they are paying the bill IMO it's their option.

All that said you can not feed a 15 or 20 amp receptacle with a 30 amp circuit, you would have to add 20 amp overcurrent protection into that portion of the circuit.

[ July 21, 2005, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[petersonra]

Re: Small Commercial Job - Am I unreasonable here?

I am not so sure there is anything wrong with what they are asking for.

It is entirely possible that the 30A twistlock receptacles are on 20A branch circuits in the other installation, which would make the installation of a 120V outlet on those branch circuits no longer an issue. They may think they are 30A circuits because of the plug design, but maybe they aren't.

I think your solution is cleaner, and maybe better, but as long as it is safe and it works, I don't have an issue with it. And I don't see that plugging a computer into the outlet has anything to do with the decision. How is plugging a PC into the outlet going to hurt this equipment any?

<add smiley face>

[ July 21, 2005, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]

 

[benaround]

Re: Small Commercial Job - Am I unreasonable here?

sfav8r,

Could you arrange for a walk-thru of the existing equipment,then seeing it for yourself you could make an honest evaluation.

frank

 

[sfav8r]

Re: Small Commercial Job - Am I unreasonable here?

Thanks for the input.

They made life easy for me by opting for the higher bid (I quoted both ways).

In asnwer to a couple of questions.

Originally posted by hbiss:
How would you supply the 120V duplex receptacles off the 30A circuits anyway?

-Hal

Either a 30a single receptacle, or additional
OCPD.

Originally posted by domnic:
your in over your head.

Umm, OK. Not sure where that came from.

Originally posted by petersonra:
I am not so sure there is anything wrong with what they are asking for.

It is entirely possible that the 30A twistlock receptacles are on 20A branch circuits in the other installation, which would make the installation of a 120V outlet on those branch circuits no longer an issue. They may think they are 30A circuits because of the plug design, but maybe they aren't.

I think your solution is cleaner, and maybe better, but as long as it is safe and it works, I don't have an issue with it. And I don't see that plugging a computer into the outlet has anything to do with the decision. How is plugging a PC into the outlet going to hurt this equipment any?

<add smiley face>

I think you're correct in general. We expect inspectors to understand that as long as out installation meets the NEC, it doesn't have to meet their "preferred" method of installation.

Same is true with me in this case, I suppose. I didn't like the "design." I wouldn't have taken it as seriously if there had been approved plans.

My comment about the computer had to do with interference for the computer, not damage to the equipment. Computers, not just PC's but lots of similar devices, don't take too kindly to being on a circuit right next to a 4hp motor.