Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

[brother]

Its been a while since ive worked in residential, but i heard someone say that when they do new construction in residential that they put the smoke detectors on the same circuit as the refrigerator recepticle when ever they can so long as it doens overload it.
He says that the inspector lets the smokes in the bedrooms get away for not being on the AFCI for safety reasons.

Is this a common practice in other areas. I do see the advantage in doing this and i was just wondering what others do in their area?

 

[david]

Re: Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

Your joking right, I mean about the smoke detectors for the bed- room being on the refrig. circuit in the kitchen?

The current code requires all bed- room circuits to be ark fault protected. That being said I know some are saying they will not enforce ark protection for the smokes.

 

[brother]

Re: Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

No im not joking, their on the same circuit. He explain to me the reason and I kinda agree with the logic behind it.

 

[noxx]

Re: Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

Once again I have my 2002 in the truck and not on my desk, but I am fairly certain the arc fault requirements apply only to branch circuits supplying receptacles.

In addition, outlets for smoke detectors are not commonly counted in a circuits load in new construction residential, the theory being that they can only possible serve one device, with minimal load. The only violation I really see this running into would be the limitations on taps/splices per branch circuit, as the reefer receptacle commonly serves other receptacles as well.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

The refrigerator can be fed (2) different ways.

On one of the 20amp small appliance circuts or by a dedicated circut.

Neither of which would allow smoke detectors to be on the refrigerator circut.

 

[brother]

Re: Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

They keep the refer circuit dedicate for the refer only, except for the smokes being on the same circuit.

 

[david]

Re: Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.

B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.

NEC Handbook ?

?Section 210.12 requires that AFCI protection be provided on branch circuits that supply outlets (receptacle, lighting, etc.) in dwelling unit bedrooms. The requirement is limited to 15- and 20-ampere 125-volt circuits. There is no prohibition against providing AFCI protection on other circuits or in locations other than bedrooms. Because circuits are often shared between a bedroom and other areas such as closets and hallways, providing AFCI protection on the complete circuit would comply with 210.12.?\


Sorry, ?outlets? means more than just the receptacles.

 

[david]

Re: Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

Code aside for a second,

In my house appliances have tripped more circuits than any other one thing, I?m thinking that could be true in other homes. Most of the time it?s the old shop vacuum, but why would you want life safety devices on an appliance circuit? It reminds me of the old saying ?sense is not always so common?.

I know some reason they do not want smokes on a dedicated circuit so one might reason that heck put them on a circuit like the refrig. that is visited more than any other area and no one is going to let their ice box melt before resetting that breaker.

But do not most smokes have battery back up and chirp if line power has failed?

[ July 16, 2003, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: david ]

 

[goldstar]

Re: Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

I've heard of this being done before. Some of the inspectors that work in major cities suggest that you do this so that apartment dwellers and/or homeowners will not shut off their malfunctioning smoke detectors if it means shutting off their refers. The thinking is that they will get their smoke detectors repaired rather than shutting them down and ignoring the problem.

But this brings up another point........are you now going to run 12/3 to all the detectors ? Working with # 12 in the dining room and kitchen is so much fun why not extend the pleasure to the smoke detector circuit !!!

[ July 16, 2003, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: goldstar ]

 

[brother]

Re: Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

David people take batteries out and I was told that until they make a smoke detector with an unremovable battery, there is still a safty hazard. Some places STILL only make the hardwired smokes WITHOUT the battery backup.

goldstar has the reasoning that i have heard from others, they believe that no one will let their frig sit with the breaker off and that if there was ever a malfunction on the circuit tripping it would be noticed right away and the home owner would be more motivated to get it fixed.

If smokes were on their own circuit and the breaker tripped for some unknown reason (bad breaker or short), they claim the AVERAGE home owner would not noticed it right away and when they do, they take their time in getting it repaired. In the process Leaving their home vulnerble to fire. Lets be honest, even though most of those smoke detectors say test monthly or test weekly, MOST PEOPLE DO NOT DO IT!

I use to think that smokes needed to be on its own circuit and that the refrigerator would be on its own, and then there would be the 2 additional appliance circuits in the kitchen. But when I hear the reasoning behind them doing this.
I agree with the logic they have.
Ive been to homes where the smoke circuit was off/tripped and no one noticed it, or someone forgot about it when the smokes malfunction and they turned it off because of the nuisance chirping on the hardwired smokes instead of finding out which one it was causing the problem and taking it down and replacing it right away. This person just turned the breaker off and left it off apparently for about a few weeks!

This putting it on the refer circuit seems to motivate people more to make sure the smokes are on and staying on. Even though we cant force people to test them like they suppose to or stop them from removing the battery.

 

[curt swartz]

Re: Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

Brother

All listed and approved AC smoke detectors with battery backup will beep every few seconds when the battery gets low or if its removed. The only way to stop the beeping is to replace the battery or disconnect the AC power.

 

[david]

Re: Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

I know, but we can?t police the world. Their will always be those who defeat the safety issues in the code no matter what extent we go to insure safety. There will be people who can?t figure out how to take a smoke apart to change the battery; they end up breaking the smoke from the base. Some people will find the same model and replace the unit to the base, some will just replace or have replaced the base and smoke with a new unit, and some will not bother at all.

Years ago, when I was in the ARMY 13E10 fire direction, we had safety zones set to protect forward observers you now the guy hiding out their lucky enough to try and adjust where the rounds were hitting. Safety zones were designed to stop friendly fire incidents. A new 2nd LT as a forward observer called in a fire mission gave a set of coordinates. The # 1 chart operator scratched his head. Called over to the sergeant take a look at this. With a chuckle sarg. Picked up the landline to the gunny sergeant to all guns check fire with that he shut down the firing battery. Then he picked up the secured radio to the 2nd LT the message went out check your coordinates the 2nd LT replied fire mission same coordinates, Again sarg. Sent out the message check ?YOUR? coordinates over! The message came back I say AGAIN ?FIRE MISSION? same coordinates. Sarg. Looked at us picked up the mike and shouted SHOT over, it was about that time the 2nd LT finally got the sergeants message. Sarg look at his watch waited 15 sec. Picked up the mike and shouted splash over. The splash message is given five seconds before a round impacts, to give the forward observer notice to help located the round As the second LT and his party scrambled to exit the jeep they were in the mike hit the floor and keyed all we herd was the 2n LT say sh-t.

You can set all the checks and balances you want to keep people safe, and a lot of times its good to think and re-think safety, but as when your cleaning at some point you have to stop sweeping the floor its clean enough.

 

[jason]

Re: Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

I read alot but do not reply alot. I visit this site to learn more than any other reason. I've read posts on this same type topic before.. "smokes arc fault or not"... Of course code states that all "outlets" that are on a bedroom circuit be arc fault protected.. like someone stated, an "outlet" is not just a receptacle. Thats code. However, it is a very interesting topic. Personally, I do not put smokes in the bedroom, never have. The code that I've learned to know in this area requires them to be within 6 foot of the bedroom door. That kinda eliminates this topic all together. But its apparent that some put smokes IN the bedroom. Arc Fault is a new "rule" so to speak. Rules, as we know, are always changing and/or being modified. For those that install smoke in bedrooms, its code to have them arc fault protected. But, I think this may someday change. I mean, breakers do go bad. Has anyone heard that the arc fault breaker doesnt? The GFCI says to test it once a year or so to see if its bad. Is the afci bulletproof? If the AFCI is bad, and you have an arc in the bedroom, a fire does start, wouldnt you want the smokes to have power? Ahh, but they are battery back-up. What if the battery is dead? Very good topic, tough answer... My 2 cents.

 

[george t. everett]

Re: Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

If the Refrig is on a dedicated 15 amp circuit, I think it is not all that bad. What article of the code would prohibit this arrangement?

 

[brother]

Re: Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

Some one posted:

All listed and approved AC smoke detectors with battery backup will beep every few seconds when the battery gets low OR IF ITS REMOVED. The only way to stop the beeping is to replace the battery or DISCONNECT THE AC POWER.


I got a smoke detector that is hard wired with battery backup that I just bought last year, just out of curiousity, I took the battery out and left on the AC power only. Well i stayed here working on other things for about 2 hours and it NEVER CHIRPED, BEEPED OR ANYTHING. I suppose this is not a LISTED AND APPROVED SMOKEY THAT I GOT FROM HOME DEPOT!

So if a battery is COMPLETELY dead, not even enuff juice to chirp, and the only thing left is the breaker, and that breaker is tripped or is off because the home owner did it. I think we would have a situation. I know its code to put it on an Afci, but in my oppinion i think they will eventually change that.

 

[pierre]

Re: Smoke detectors on refrigerator circuit?

Getting beyond the Arc fault requirements, one should be aware that most building departments require the smoke detectors in a dwelling unit to follow NFPA 72. The NEC has no requirements for smoke detectors other than if they are hardwired they then will meet the MIMIMUM requirements of the wiring method employed. Here is a brief list of some of those requirements.
NFPA 72 Chapter 11:

11.5.1.1 (I am not writing the exact wording, it is quite long. but enough so the meaning is not changed)
One and Two family Dwellings
(1) In all sleeping rooms
(2) Outside of each separate sleeping area, in the immediate vicinity of the sleeping rooms
(3) On each level of the dwelling unit, including basements

11.6.3
(4) AC primary (main) power shall be supplied either from a dedicated branch circuit or the unswitched portion of a branch circuit also used for power and lighting.

11.8.2.1 through 11.8.3.5 should also be reviewed, but is too lengthy to write here.

Most building inspectors will not look to see if the smokes are on the fridge circuit, although I have seen some test for this later (hard to rewire when the sheetrock and paint are already finished - embarassing too).
I say the smokes cannot be installed off of the fridge circuit. We usually are asked/told by the inspector to install off of the hall circuit.
NFPA 72 11.6.3
(5) Operation of a switch (other than a circuit breaker) or a ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall not cause loss of primarty (main) power.

I have not come across any limitations regarding arc fault protected circuits, maybe someone knows more.
This might coincide with the cmp's statement in the ROP, that they have kept the requirement of having the smokes included on the Arc fault circuit. Why have a weak link in the chain?

Pierre