Smoke Detectors Store Front

[vortac555]

Hello All

2nd time poster. Hoping to get some good feed back from my fellow electrical contractors and electricians.
When I run into the conundrums. I usually reach out to trademens and my local inspectors. After my first post and response on the site . The wealth of knowledge ...how can you beat it.

Here goes

I have been ask to look at an existing store that never made the requirement for place of assembly. It is a food chain in New York. Which has recently opened and for some odd reason no smoke or CO detection was installed. Line or low voltage. No fire alarm required.

The question is how many smoke and CO detectors do I need. My Understanding is.... a CO/Smoke on each floor. In this case there is the Main level Restaurant and basement. I am figuring 1-CO/Smoke in the basement and 1-CO/Smoke first floor. And the rest of the first floor would be Smoke Detectors line voltage all battery back up.

Now the Question. Am I correct in stating its 1 detector for every 200 square feet In the MAin dining area. Anything required in the kitchen Space ?

Thanks In Advance

 

[Ponchik]

I don't think CO or smoke detectors are required for commercial. Are they?? :?:?

 

[luckylerado]

Hello All

2nd time poster. Hoping to get some good feed back from my fellow electrical contractors and electricians.
When I run into the conundrums. I usually reach out to trademens and my local inspectors. After my first post and response on the site . The wealth of knowledge ...how can you beat it.

Here goes

I have been ask to look at an existing store that never made the requirement for place of assembly. It is a food chain in New York. Which has recently opened and for some odd reason no smoke or CO detection was installed. Line or low voltage. No fire alarm required.

The question is how many smoke and CO detectors do I need. My Understanding is.... a CO/Smoke on each floor. In this case there is the Main level Restaurant and basement. I am figuring 1-CO/Smoke in the basement and 1-CO/Smoke first floor. And the rest of the first floor would be Smoke Detectors line voltage all battery back up.

Now the Question. Am I correct in stating its 1 detector for every 200 square feet In the MAin dining area. Anything required in the kitchen Space ?

Thanks In Advance

You should have it designed by an engineer or NICET level designer. You will need to interface the hoods and branch circuits under the hoods. Probably the gas valves and you will need at least a pull station in the kitchen and exits. You may not need any smokes or CO in the dining area but you would need a smoke over the panel(s). You should not take on the design of this yourself.

 

[nhfire77]

You should have it designed by an engineer or NICET level designer. You will need to interface the hoods and branch circuits under the hoods. Probably the gas valves and you will need at least a pull station in the kitchen and exits. You may not need any smokes or CO in the dining area but you would need a smoke over the panel(s). You should not take on the design of this yourself.

+1.

If the building code does not require a FA, the mechanical code may just require a CO interlock with gas valve not a smoke/CO combo. And there may need to be a shunt breaker depending on the type of equipment. Unless you understand exactly how this is accomplished without further explanation, get someone else to assist you- in person. The guy installing the gas valve may have a referral for you.

Installing Line volt smoke detectors most likely is not a good solution either. They are not listed for use in a commercial occupancy.

 

[ron]

The requirement is in the building code for that jurisdiction.

 

[nhfire77]

The requirement is in the building code for that jurisdiction.

What's the requirement for- Line smokes or a full fire alarm?

They require a FA with forces notification here if there is any type suppression system regardless of occupancy/assembly classification

 

[gadfly56]

If they follow the IBC with little or no modification, there may very well be no requirement for alarm coverage of any kind. Check with the jurisdiction for the applicable standards and the edition that are in force. Ask if there are any local amendments.

 

[ron]

If they follow the IBC with little or no modification, there may very well be no requirement for alarm coverage of any kind. Check with the jurisdiction for the applicable standards and the edition that are in force. Ask if there are any local amendments.

I think an A-2 occupancy would require it. If it is a B occupancy, then maybe not.

 

[gadfly56]

I think an A-2 occupancy would require it. If it is a B occupancy, then maybe not.

According to the 2009 edition of the IBC, only if the occupancy is over 300. So your typical McDonald's or Wendy's likely wouldn't need coverage. If it's part of a night club that may change things. I know NJ has special requirements and NY may as well.

 

[kwired]

Hello All

2nd time poster. Hoping to get some good feed back from my fellow electrical contractors and electricians.
When I run into the conundrums. I usually reach out to trademens and my local inspectors. After my first post and response on the site . The wealth of knowledge ...how can you beat it.

Here goes

I have been ask to look at an existing store that never made the requirement for place of assembly. It is a food chain in New York. Which has recently opened and for some odd reason no smoke or CO detection was installed. Line or low voltage. No fire alarm required.

The question is how many smoke and CO detectors do I need. My Understanding is.... a CO/Smoke on each floor. In this case there is the Main level Restaurant and basement. I am figuring 1-CO/Smoke in the basement and 1-CO/Smoke first floor. And the rest of the first floor would be Smoke Detectors line voltage all battery back up.

Now the Question. Am I correct in stating its 1 detector for every 200 square feet In the MAin dining area. Anything required in the kitchen Space ?

Thanks In Advance

You said no fire alarm is required, then you talk about smoke and CO detectors.

You may have some confusion in terminology. The smoke and CO alarms commonly found in single family dwellings are self contained alarms and not technically "detectors" of an alarm system.

Fire suppression system may be required at cooking area but not necessarily any alarms are required.

Most of those requirements depend on building types and maximum occupancy as far as which levels of protection may be necessary as some have been pointing out.

 

[vortac555]

SSmoke Detectors

SSmoke Detectors

There is not fire alarm and obliviously it would not be prudent to install one. My understanding that there are no line Voltage CO Detectors that are approved for commercial application. ....Do commercial spaced require CO Detection.
The building department is just asking for operational smoke detectors.
Sub chapter 17 Article 6 NYC Building Code. I am waiting on the Architect for the language in this Code.
There is duct detection ,Fire Sprinklers in the space . And the Shopping Center does have Tamper and Flow.
So can I just install line voltage smokes and call it a day

 

[ActionDave]

So can I just install line voltage smokes and call it a day

Sure, go ahead and do that. Do you have any more questions you wish to ignore answers to?

 

[mgookin]

There is not fire alarm and obliviously it would not be prudent to install one. My understanding that there are no line Voltage CO Detectors that are approved for commercial application. ....Do commercial spaced require CO Detection.
The building department is just asking for operational smoke detectors.
Sub chapter 17 Article 6 NYC Building Code. I am waiting on the Architect for the language in this Code.
There is duct detection ,Fire Sprinklers in the space . And the Shopping Center does have Tamper and Flow.
So can I just install line voltage smokes and call it a day

So now you're in NYC. That changes things. They have their own code.

If there are sprinklers, there is a fire alarm. The tamper and flow are monitored always. Sprinklers don't put a fire out; they (hopefully) contain the fire while the fire dept is en route and setting up.

As for what type and location of required notification appliances, annunciation devices and pull stations, that's a local (NYC) issue. Unless there's a NYC fire alarm engineer or contractor on this forum, I don't think you're going to get your answer here. The National Electric Code is not going to provide the information you need. This is a NEC forum.

As you said, your Architect is who should be advising you. He needs to get a qualified fire alarm engineer and contractor as part of his design services.

Good luck with your project.

 

[Strathead]

What's the requirement for- Line smokes or a full fire alarm?

They require a FA with forces notification here if there is any type suppression system regardless of occupancy/assembly classification

I am thinking mistype, but what does forces notification mean?

 

[gadfly56]

I am thinking mistype, but what does forces notification mean?

Probably central station monitoring with mandatory re-transmission of the signal to the local responders. NJ requires that any commercial space that has a fire alarm has to be central station monitored, even if the space doesn't require the alarm and the owner/tenant just happens to want one.

 

[Strathead]

Probably central station monitoring with mandatory re-transmission of the signal to the local responders. NJ requires that any commercial space that has a fire alarm has to be central station monitored, even if the space doesn't require the alarm and the owner/tenant just happens to want one.

Oh, so like fireman forces then? Hmm, odd turn of phrase.

 

[ron]

So now you're in NYC. That changes things. They have their own code.

NYC building code is pretty similar to the IBC for this section
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/apps/pd..._Protection_Systems.pdf&section=conscode_2014

The control panel that monitors the tamper / flow switches would need a manual station and smoke detector adjacent / above for NFPA 72 compliance.


Section 908.7.3 covers CO alarms / detection

 

[gadfly56]

There is not fire alarm and obliviously it would not be prudent to install one. My understanding that there are no line Voltage CO Detectors that are approved for commercial application. ....Do commercial spaced require CO Detection.
The building department is just asking for operational smoke detectors.
Sub chapter 17 Article 6 NYC Building Code. I am waiting on the Architect for the language in this Code.
There is duct detection ,Fire Sprinklers in the space . And the Shopping Center does have Tamper and Flow.
So can I just install line voltage smokes and call it a day

You will not be able to install line voltage detectors in a commercial space and "call it a day". Smoke or CO, they are not approved for commercial use especially if there is an existing low voltage fire alarm control panel, as indicated by the presence of duct detection and flow and tamper switches. Also, despite what the building department is asking for, there is no requirement for smoke detection in an A-2 occupancy under 300 persons, even in NYC.

"907.2.1 Group A. A manual and automatic fire alarm sys-
tem shall be installed in accordance with NFPA 72 in Group
A occupancies having an occupant load of 300 or more."

There may be such a requirement if the location is a mixed use facility and it does not have 2-hour separation between the most demanding use and the adjacent uses.

What you will certainly need is notification in the space if the fire alarm control panel (FACP) detects water flow, or smoke at the panel, or the activation of the manual pull station. Now, if the shopping center is large enough to require a voice evacuation system, you'll need to install a sufficient quantity of speakers and speaker/strobes, otherwise they will be horn/strobes.