Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Today was a really hectic one this A.M. I got a call to go and meet Chief Inspector at a home we did.Home owner fell asleep and a pot on the stove caught fire.She says she woke up house full of smoke and got her child and took the pot and put it in the sink(all this time she says no smoke detectors sounded)Then when she put it in the sink it flared and then the detectors went off.We got there at the same time and we checked inter connect and i blew smoke in the closest one to the kitchen,they went off ??? We use USI brand detectors model 1204 if not mistaken.Has anyone had a problem with these ???(in my opinion she woke up realized she left it on,grabbed it put it in the sink and turned water on woosh.... The only real damage was just over her sink and all it was is a little char on the ceiling this is my opinion) Just wondering is anyone has had trouble with these.We have had a problem with them causing false alarms but not working ???
Thanks ALLEN

 

[ty]

Re: Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

Allen, we use BRK and only ever had one problem with them it it was a batch that would 'alarm' for no apparent reason. Replaced them with new ones and never had any other problems.
You could be right in your opinion. And where do you go from here?
I hate installing the smoke detector system. NEC does not require them, Fire Code does. Alot of times we bid the job with the smokes as extra because alot of homes that we do have them installed by the security company. I prefer this method.
The other problem that we have is not really the fault of the detectors. They have a minimum/maximum temperature operating range, and in colder months, before the G.C. turns the heat on, we get calls about the 'chirping'.
Boycott the Electrical contractor being responsible for installing the stinkin' things!

 

[hurk27]

Re: Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

How old is this instalation? One thing to look for is a buildup of dust inside of the detector. and or paint that might have been sprayed into it. It might not be noticable on the outside but if you open it up you might find evadiance that the panter sprayed them then wiped them off. also most newer smokes come with a little shower cap looking bag that should of been placed over the smokes while construction was going on. as smokes ability to detect goes down as dust builds up in them again it might not look like it from the outside as the homeowner might have kept them clean. this give me another thought what if the homeowner or cleanup crew sprayed cleaners into the smoke this could effect the electronics?

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

We have this same brand USI false alarm also.but this is pretty unnerving..Not to work when needed
The installation was completed in July of this year,and covers were used at time of installation.
Up untill now the only persistent problem has been chirping,caused by 1 of 3 things.
1-weak batteries
2-batteries in backwards(from factory pull tab type)
3-small piece of plastic remained in battery when tab was pulled causing loss of contact.

The chief logged that the installation was in compliance with all codes and was at the time of test in perfect operating order.As a precaution I have a service crew going the this morning to change all detectors to another brand and I`m going to send these to the manufacturer to have them tested to see if they are operating within specs.

 

[iwire]

Re: Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

Originally posted by ty:
I hate installing the smoke detector system. NEC does not require them, Fire Code does. Alot of times we bid the job with the smokes as extra because alot of homes that we do have them installed by the security company. I prefer this method.

I am really not understanding this Ty, more equipment to sell and install should mean more money for you.

You would rather have the security contractor do your work?

Is the security contractor licensed to install line volt wiring?

 

[ty]

Re: Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

Bob, the mark up for profit is not always worth the hassle. Look at the work they had to do for this problem. They've lost money. I'm into making money. We have an extremely low call-back rate, almost none. Call backs eat your profit.
Now why I prefer the method of bidding the smokes as an option is because I can mark-up that system also.
And it's not that I would rather the security company do my work, it's just that in the large homes that we do, that's the way the builders work it.
Smokes installed by the security companies are not line voltage. So, in DE, there is no license requirement for that part of the job. The same goes for voice/datta/comm wiring.
Allen, that's what I would have done, replace them all.

 

[hbiss]

Re: Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

Ya know, I kind of agree with Ty, he has a point. Around here we (about a year ago) had an increase in insurance rates because we install smoke detectors. We have enough exposure to law suits as it is. As I see it being additionally responsible for smoke and CO detectors can be a big liability that is not nearly worth the trouble for the few dollars we make on installing them. If the damn thing malfunctions and somebody dies you are out of business even if it wasn't your fault.

 

[amptech]

Re: Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

I always encourage a homeowner to use a security company for the smokes. Reason #1: Their smokes are LV with battery back-up so they are independant of any of the AFCI circuits. Reason #2: The homeowner has the option of subscribing to a security service a lot more economically if the smokes are made to be intergrated into a dialer type system. Reason #3: Odds are the homeowner is installing a security system anyway. Reason #4: Smokes can be a pain if you get just one bad unit interconnected with 14 others and you eat up a lot of time troubleshooting. I'll gladly trade the small profit margin for letting it be the security company's headache. When I am fortunate enough to sell them on a security company install, all I have to do is provide a dedicated circuit and a phone jack.

 

[goldstar]

Re: Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

we (about a year ago) had an increase in insurance rates because we install smoke detectors. We have enough exposure to law suits as it is. As I see it being additionally responsible for smoke and CO detectors can be a big liability that is not nearly worth the trouble for the few dollars we make on installing them. If the damn thing malfunctions and somebody dies you are out of business even if it wasn't your fault.

This is the long and short of installing smoke detectors. A) If you're going to install smoke detectors and/or systems, make sure you're properly insured (ask your insurance company whether you are or not.....your premiums will be higher) and B) lawyers like to use the "shotgun" approach when filing lawsuits. If you did any part of the smoke detector work that failed, resulted in damage or a fatality.....you're part of the lawsuit. If you had no part of it then they can't sue you.

Bob (iwire), there's more to this then just the $$$. These devices sample air, they accumulate dust, trigger when they sense fumes other than those intended, inadvertantly fail and trigger when bathroom doors open after a teenager showers. (If you don't have a teenager at home you can't possibly know what I'm talking about). Anyway, what I'm getting at is that there are far more instances these devices cause where you'll have call-backs for situations you can't get paid for.

Personally, I'd rather do electrical work with equipment that has a far lower failure rate than these devices do. But, if that's what floats your boat.....have fun.

Regards,

Phil

[ November 19, 2003, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: goldstar ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

Well you guys have certainly taught me something.

I had no idea the insurance went up for installing smokes.

I have always worked for a company, so I do not have any knowledge of that part of the business.

Thanks to all of you.

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

TY,i had them replaced so that we would be the shining star in this.The worst part is that as a sub we are installing something that we have no control of in the specs senario.I had this done to show we went the extra mile.I only hope this doesn`t snow ball on us.We did what we had to before and after...... Any way guys thanks for reponces and I`ll let you know what the manufacturer has to say ???
Allen

 

[hurk27]

Re: Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

I have heard that there is some jurisdictions that even if low voltage smokes are installed you have to install line-voltage. the argurement is after a few years the home owner gets tired of paying the monthly bill to the monitoring company and the system is let go and not kept in working condition. I have to vouch that I have gone into many houses that the alarm system is nolonger being used.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

That's exactly the way it is in my area. The line voltage, interconnected, battery backup SDs can be connected to a security system thru an interface module, but the security system's own SDs are not acceptable for the Fire Marshall required SDs. Bottom line, the smokes have to be able to work even if the security system is shut off.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

Allen,

I had a similar occurance 1-1/2 yr ago. Mr. Homeowner left a pot on simmer, as I recall, a five quart stew was started by simmering down the meat-on-bone. The simmering covered pot was forgotten, and five-six hours later they returned home to acrid smoke through the kitchen, dining room, living room. The central hallway mounted 120v, interconnected, battery backup Firex SDs were silent. Mrs. HO was beside herself. She said the smoke was almost thick enough to not see across the living room. This was a bungalow built in the '20s, central hallway connecting to the bath and two beds, a 6'8" doorway between the dining and the hallway. There was also a 6'8" door between the kitchen and the dining room. 8' ceilings. 20' between the SD and pot. Both doorways were open at the time. Forced air furnace with central AC, but it was not in use.

I tested the interconnect on the SDs, and smoke tested them, and everything checked out. The area around the cook stove showed slight smoke damage on the wall.

I came to the conclusion that the smoke was, simply, not thick enough to exceed the nuisance trigger buffer.

[ November 20, 2003, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]

 

[inspector 102]

Re: Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

I was called to a home that was recently rebuilt due to a total loss by fire. The new smoke detectors were properly placed throughout the building and started activating for no apparent reason. This caused great concern by the homeowners and I spent approx. 2 hours tracing what would cause the activation. Finally I held the test button down on the detector while it was not connected to the premise wiring to discharge any memory the detector might have stored. This appeared to correct the problem. These were BRK detectors and the only time I have run across this situation. BTW - This happened at 1:30 AM and as the fire officer on call, this made me scratch my head for awhile

 

[hurk27]

Re: Smoke detectors that didn`t work ???

We had a problem with earlyer smokes that didn't have the seal between the box and the smoke. I this case the smokes would go off every time any outside door was opened and there was a slight breeze. this was in the summer so what we found was the air from the hot attic was flowing right through the smoke and tripping the fast temp rize detector. when we sealed the smoke to box with a foam gasket from a round Wp cover the problem went away we refered this info to the manufacture and they said that they would start useing gaskets to prevent this. I belive it was BRK. Now they all seal their mounting.