Soft Start Help

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jerjwillelec

Senior Member
Location
Nevada, IA
Occupation
Master Electrician
I have four 30HP 480 volt motors on bin exhaust fans for a grain elevator I will be installing soft starts on. I was looking at the ATS48D47Y. Here is what I have for schematics and was hoping for a little insight from y'all. I have a couple of questions...keeping in mind, I have replaced soft starts but never designed and installed new.

1) Transient Suppressors...what are they and where do I get them?

2) Run Command Relay...is this external to the soft start? IF so, what should I use?

3) I plan on using the recommended LC1D40A for my isolation and shorting contactors...sound good?

These are just a few to get me started...I'm sure I will have more. Any insight you can give be it simple wiring diagrams (most helpful) or suggested equipment you'd see better fit would be greatly appreciated. This is in the design and budget phase...I want to understand it all as well as avoid missing anything I will need.

Also, attached is really the only information I have to get me started on this journey

Thank you in advance!
 

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Existing Equipment

Existing Equipment

Attached is a picture of what they are currently controlled by. I am not familiar with this system (installed in the 70's). The main issue I'm having is sometimes they won't start or stop (3 wire start/stop)...which is why I've concluded this all needs replaced
 

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I am not sure what "design" there would be for you. The parts needed and the wiring will be in the manufacturer's literature.

Personally, I would buy the units that have the thing assembled in a box already so you don't have to do anything except mount the box and wire it.

I concur with your idea of just replacing it. As old as they are it is probably the best solution.
 
Attached is a picture of what they are currently controlled by. I am not familiar with this system (installed in the 70's). The main issue I'm having is sometimes they won't start or stop (3 wire start/stop)...which is why I've concluded this all needs replaced

That is an autotransformer starter, for two motors. Total replacement for just a control problem seems like overkill.
 
That is an autotransformer starter, for two motors. Total replacement for just a control problem seems like overkill.

Correct...this is one cabinet which houses two of the starters for two of the motors. The other cabinet is pretty much the same with the other two.

The issue I'm having is starting and stopping. Have to hold the button in for an inconsistent amount of time to start and/or start the motors...at times, they won't shut off. I can hear them try to stop but as soon as I release the button they start back up again...I concluded the mechanical portion of this starter system was at fault for that.
 
I am not sure what "design" there would be for you. The parts needed and the wiring will be in the manufacturer's literature.

Personally, I would buy the units that have the thing assembled in a box already so you don't have to do anything except mount the box and wire it.

I concur with your idea of just replacing it. As old as they are it is probably the best solution.

I'm wanting to make sure I budget correctly for everything needed...the wiring diagram shows an * = user supplied. I'm not sure what to use.
 
Correct...this is one cabinet which houses two of the starters for two of the motors. The other cabinet is pretty much the same with the other two.

The issue I'm having is starting and stopping. Have to hold the button in for an inconsistent amount of time to start and/or start the motors...at times, they won't shut off. I can hear them try to stop but as soon as I release the button they start back up again...I concluded the mechanical portion of this starter system was at fault for that.

That sounds more like a problem with the seal-in contacts of the main on/off relay (potentially a small easily replaced relay) than anything else.
 
I have four 30HP 480 volt motors on bin exhaust fans for a grain elevator I will be installing soft starts on. I was looking at the ATS48D47Y. Here is what I have for schematics and was hoping for a little insight from y'all. I have a couple of questions...keeping in mind, I have replaced soft starts but never designed and installed new.

1) Transient Suppressors...what are they and where do I get them?

2) Run Command Relay...is this external to the soft start? IF so, what should I use?

3) I plan on using the recommended LC1D40A for my isolation and shorting contactors...sound good?

These are just a few to get me started...I'm sure I will have more. Any insight you can give be it simple wiring diagrams (most helpful) or suggested equipment you'd see better fit would be greatly appreciated. This is in the design and budget phase...I want to understand it all as well as avoid missing anything I will need.

Also, attached is really the only information I have to get me started on this journey

Thank you in advance!
1. Any general electrical component supplier. We use a local one - Europa components - but I'm sure there will be some in your area.
2. External. I'd tend to use an "ice cube" relay given that it switching 24Vdc.
3. I agree.
 
That sounds more like a problem with the seal-in contacts of the main on/off relay (potentially a small easily replaced relay) than anything else.
Could also be the mechanical interlocks on the contactors are wearing out and jamming, which may also be damaging the contacts, in which case by the time you futz with it to replace them and get them adjusted, you could have put in the soft starters and be done.

The line isolation contactor is optional, you only really need it if you think there is a big problem with lightning strikes in your area (I don't know what Iowa is like in that regard, but here in Calif., we never use them). But my personal experience with that line of soft starters is not good, so that might be prudent.... They are really designed in France for 400V 50Hz systems and marginally stretched into 480V service for North America. But when the 480V line climbs to 502V in the middle of the night, these things tend to fry. So an IC ahead of the soft starter means it's disconnected from the line whenever it's not in use.

Transient Suppressors are also optional, but if you chose to use an isolation contactor, the TVSS (now called an SPD for Surge Protective Device) would be unnecessary in my opinion. One for the entire panel would cost you less, but it appears you have two separate feeds, likely from two circuit breakers, so that wouldn't work. You could however just put one SPD on the panelboard feeding this, same protection. That is, IF you want it at all.

You WILL need bypass contactors if you are going to have them sealed in that box. There are other brands out there that have the bypass contactors built-in, I prefer those to be honest. If you want to use that RVSS + a bypass, you must be VERY careful about how you connect it, because the RVSS is still providing the OL protection and if you connect it to the wrong spot, you end up bypassing the OL and cooking the motor if there is a problem. You can't do that with the integral OL versions, like an A-B SMC-3 or SMC-Flex.

I agree, any control relay is fine, those are very low energy control circuits.
 
I'm inexperienced

I'm inexperienced

Could also be the mechanical interlocks on the contactors are wearing out and jamming, which may also be damaging the contacts, in which case by the time you futz with it to replace them and get them adjusted, you could have put in the soft starters and be done.

The line isolation contactor is optional, you only really need it if you think there is a big problem with lightning strikes in your area (I don't know what Iowa is like in that regard, but here in Calif., we never use them). But my personal experience with that line of soft starters is not good, so that might be prudent.... They are really designed in France for 400V 50Hz systems and marginally stretched into 480V service for North America. But when the 480V line climbs to 502V in the middle of the night, these things tend to fry. So an IC ahead of the soft starter means it's disconnected from the line whenever it's not in use.

Transient Suppressors are also optional, but if you chose to use an isolation contactor, the TVSS (now called an SPD for Surge Protective Device) would be unnecessary in my opinion. One for the entire panel would cost you less, but it appears you have two separate feeds, likely from two circuit breakers, so that wouldn't work. You could however just put one SPD on the panelboard feeding this, same protection. That is, IF you want it at all.

You WILL need bypass contactors if you are going to have them sealed in that box. There are other brands out there that have the bypass contactors built-in, I prefer those to be honest. If you want to use that RVSS + a bypass, you must be VERY careful about how you connect it, because the RVSS is still providing the OL protection and if you connect it to the wrong spot, you end up bypassing the OL and cooking the motor if there is a problem. You can't do that with the integral OL versions, like an A-B SMC-3 or SMC-Flex.

I agree, any control relay is fine, those are very low energy control circuits.

Jraef...I was hoping you would chime in on this!

So, I have very little experience with this type of electrical and need some schooling especially on your abbreviations. RVSS? A-B (I assume is Allen Bradley)? SMC-3? SMC-Flex?
 
Yes, A-B = Allen Bradley
SMC-3 = low cost simple soft starter, dip switch and dial adjustments, LEDs for indication
SMC-Flex = digital programmable soft starter, all the whiz bang features, LCD display etc.

Both of those have integral (built-in) bypass contacts.
 
Line isolation is required for the controller to be able to break a fault.
http://www.schneider-electric.us/en...cale=en_US&searchid=1478888260641#__highlight


How often do the motors start/stop? I believe the ATS48 has 10 starts per hour rating in standard duty which goes down to 2 starts per hour when used with a shorting contactor. I do not understand the reasoning behind this but it is in their manual.
Hmmm... I think their use of the word "required" is a bit disengenuous, given that they are essentially "requiring" you to buy their contactor too.

The concept behind this is somewhat valid in this way; when SCRs fail, they fail shorted, as a conductor. So yes, if one SCR fails the line now goes to the load on that one phase. But there is no path for damaging motor current if only one device fails, you must have conduction in TWO of the phases (two SCRs in the same phase also has no current flow path). When you have 2 SCRs fail in separate phases, now you have single phase power going to the motor with no way to stop it and it can damage the motor. It's EXACTLY the same as having two contacts weld in a contactor, and in my opinion, has the same level of risk associated with it. So should we then make sure we put TWO contactors in series with every FVNR starter just to be sure? The contactor mfrs would love that, but how often in your career have you seen a contactor weld, and how may of those involved TWO contacts welding at the same time? "Safety" contactors are required to do this, because even a tiny risk is too much for some hogh safet category machinery. But every day stuff? Over kill.

In my 30+ years of dealing with RVSS starters, I have only once seen a situation where two SCRs failed at the same time on a standard RVSS connected "in-line" (more on that below). It's extremely rare, but from their standpoint, sells a lot more contactors... What typically happens is that an SCR fails while the motor is running, but you actually don't know that it happened yet, until the RVSS goes to turn it OFF and there is no voltage drop on one of the phases (that's how a shorted SCR is detected). So the control board of the RVSS will then disable the Start command from that point on until the shorted SCR is replaced. That effectively prevents you from shorting another one and being unable to stop the current flow.

Now there are three situations where this is no longer the case:
1) CHEAP starters that only use SCRs in 2 of the phases and the third phase is a piece of bus bar. I vehemently object to this practice, but EU suppliers have been pushing it for years now because it makes the RVSS cheaper 9only 2/3 of the expensive parts). it's REALLY bad for the motor if there is any extended ramp time (i.e. over 5 seconds) and/or a high duty cycle. Bottom lione, you can get away with not damaging the motor if it's a centrifugal pump, and they know that a LOT of AC motors go on centrifugal pumps. But the second risk is related to what I said above, that you need TWO phases conducting to have current flow. In this design, one phase is ALWAYS able to conduct, it's just a bus bar. So now even ONE shorted SCR and you can lose the motor.

2) The second situation is what's called "inside the delta" connection of the RVSS when you have a Wye-Delta wound motor. You bring the 6 leads out of the motor and the SCRs are put in SERIES with the two halves of the Delta windings inside of the motor. So again, since one side of each winding is hot all the time, one shorted SCR and you lose the motor.

3) The 3rd situation is now so rare I'm not sure anyone still makes them, but there have been RVSS manufacturers that use an SCR + a diode on each phase to save money. Again, bad for the motor and risky because if one SCR shorts, you have 1/2 wave power flow to the motor that can't be controlled. Payne soft starters were notorious for that, they may have stopped marketing them now.

In all 3 of these, you MUST add the line isolation contactor that is tied to a fault detection circuit in the starter that drops out that contactor if there is one shorted SCR. The irony is, the only reason any of these things are done is to same money on the RVSS, yet by requiring the line isolation contactor, it ends up costing the same, sometimes more! It's a shell game for capturing the attention of buyers who buy on price alone...
 
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