soft start idler motor

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I recently purchased a 60hp phase converter for a customer who purchased a 30hp air compressor. The phase converter company said 150 amp breaker feeding converter with 3/0 was sufficient. I can't get idler motor to start, just turns and trips breaker. Voltage drop at main panel is from 240 to 180. It's a single phase 200 amp panel residential fed from a 50kva transformer. Is there a soft start or autotransformer or something that would get this converter started. At start up it's drawing 800amps but when it's idle it should just draw maybe 20 amps. I know the utility rate their transformers for 80%. They said they would not upgrade transformer. Is there anyway around this to get phase converter started?
 
I would have used a VFD instead of an add-a-phase. If sized correctly a VFD will provide a three phase output with a single-phase input & would eliminate the motor inrush issue.
 
I recently purchased a 60hp phase converter for a customer who purchased a 30hp air compressor. The phase converter company said 150 amp breaker feeding converter with 3/0 was sufficient. I can't get idler motor to start, just turns and trips breaker. Voltage drop at main panel is from 240 to 180. It's a single phase 200 amp panel residential fed from a 50kva transformer. Is there a soft start or autotransformer or something that would get this converter started. At start up it's drawing 800amps but when it's idle it should just draw maybe 20 amps. I know the utility rate their transformers for 80%. They said they would not upgrade transformer. Is there anyway around this to get phase converter started?
Assuming 240V single phase service and by "60HP" you mean it has a 60HP Rotary Phase Converter (RPC)? Forget all the stuff about idle current, totally irrelevant. You are wanting to start a large single phase motor that is rated 60HP as far as starting it is concerned, even if there were no load on it. That transformer is capable of delivering 208A continuous, likely about 300A momentarily without causing more than a 10% voltage drop. A 60HP 240V single phase idler motor is likely rated 135A at FLC, then 6x that on start (which by the way is your 800A). So you have a motor that is going to attempt to draw 800A from a transformer rated to deliver at most, 300A for a second or two. Can't happen.

Bottom line, your RPC vendor was being disingenuous in suggesting that a 150A 2P breaker would work. You need a 150A single phase SUPPLY for continuous FLC, then the breaker, to avoid nuisance tripping, should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 200-250% of that. Your transformer would need to be that big as well, so I'd say 125kVA minimum.

No soft starter or autotransformer starter (not that there is one for single phase motors) is going to help you here. With a soft starter, it reduces current, but does so by reducing voltage, which cuts starting torque by the square of the voltage reduction. that means that even unloaded, you will still likely draw more current that the transformer can handle without itself dropping the voltage and on a single phase motor that has a centrifugal starting switch for the caps, you end up with too little torque to get it to the point where the centrifugal switch closes, so it never finishes accelerating. Those starting caps are, at the same time, causing damage to the SCRs in the soft starter, and the harmonics in the SCR firing are heating up the capacitor, so it ends up being a race to see who fails first unless the motor can accelerate in a matter of a few seconds, which is exactly the problem here.

If you are stuck with a 50kVA source transformer, the ONLY possible way I see that you are going to start that compressor is by using a 60HP VFD. The VFD must be over sized to handle the conversion from single phase to 3 phase, and a 50% de-rate is an absolute minimum, given ideal conditions. The conductors feeding a VFD must be sized at 125% of the VFD input current. So because it is a 60HP VFD, likely sized at around 145A input, that means the conductors will need to be rated 181A, there is your 3/0 cable (most likely). The VFD can however accelerate the 30HP 3 phase load motor at 100% FLA if necessary, it's the only thing that can. So assuming an FLC of 80A on your 3 phase compressor motor, that looks like 138A on the single phase side so you have plenty of transformer available to get it up and running.

That said, VFDs and Reciprocating compressors can get problematic because of pulsating torque requirements, but that can often be overcome by using a Sensorless Vector Control capable drive. However compressors that use "splash oiling" are often required to accelerate in very short times so you might need more than FLC to do that. In this case you likely have enough head room in that transformer, as long as little else is running.
 
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141016-1544 EDT

Possible method. I have never tried it. Use a smaller motor, possibly DC with current limiting, to accelerate the rotary phase converter up to its running speed, possibly just under 1800 RPM. Then apply power to the phase converter.

The next problem is probably whether the phase converter and power company service can start the compressor. May be necessary to start with zero back pressure.

Why such a large compressor in a residential loacation. My son runs 6 CNC machines on a 5 HP compressor, and only once in a while turns on the 10 HP scroll compressor. But sand blasting or a lot of air motors would require a lot of compressor capability. A moderate size manufacturing plant, about 300,000 sq ft, with numerous air tools had two couple hundred horsepower compressors.

Air is a very expensive way to run motors or the equivalent.

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I recently purchased a 60hp phase converter for a customer who purchased a 30hp air compressor. The phase converter company said 150 amp breaker feeding converter with 3/0 was sufficient. I can't get idler motor to start, just turns and trips breaker. Voltage drop at main panel is from 240 to 180. It's a single phase 200 amp panel residential fed from a 50kva transformer. Is there a soft start or autotransformer or something that would get this converter started. At start up it's drawing 800amps but when it's idle it should just draw maybe 20 amps. I know the utility rate their transformers for 80%. They said they would not upgrade transformer. Is there anyway around this to get phase converter started?

As a side note your customer may run into issues with the power company. Most times the terms of service will limit large motors and welders on residential services.

If his new motor dims the neighbors during start up they would likely trace the issue to this motor.
 
141016-1544 EDT

Possible method. I have never tried it. Use a smaller motor, possibly DC with current limiting, to accelerate the rotary phase converter up to its running speed, possibly just under 1800 RPM. Then apply power to the phase converter. ...
A pony motor for an idler motor. I've seen it done, might work but only if the idler has an exposed shaft to put a sheave on.
21618d1270392891-rotary-phase-converter-designs-plans-lathe1.jpg
Most of the factory built ones don't unfortunately...
Blower03.jpg
 
I recently purchased a 60hp phase converter for a customer who purchased a 30hp air compressor. The phase converter company said 150 amp breaker feeding converter with 3/0 was sufficient. I can't get idler motor to start, just turns and trips breaker. Voltage drop at main panel is from 240 to 180. It's a single phase 200 amp panel residential fed from a 50kva transformer. Is there a soft start or autotransformer or something that would get this converter started. At start up it's drawing 800amps but when it's idle it should just draw maybe 20 amps. I know the utility rate their transformers for 80%. They said they would not upgrade transformer. Is there anyway around this to get phase converter started?

About 15 years ago I did one of these when I worked for the poco. It was a 60 HP three phase motor and the three phase was many miles away. I recall clearly we hung a 75 kva trans on our single phase line to serve the rotary add-a-phase and that was never an issue. The rotary unit was a noisy, unwieldy beast but it worked.

Surely your customer's service doesn't want to see this gargantuan voltage drop every time a start is attempted. I realize it may cost, but you need a dedicated transformer and service for this. I'd be surprised if a 50 kva didn't do the trick. By the way, we loaded our overhead transformers to 150% routinely, not 80%. Padmounts we were less aggressive with, but 125% was not uncommon.

Ben
 
Off Topic Iron Ben, What was the reasoning to be conservative loading the pad mount transformer to 125% vs 150% for pole mounted ? I assume pole mounted transformers are easier to change than pad mount. I do not Know ?

RBMC Just exactly what is this homeowner running with a 30 HP air compressor ?
 
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Off Topic Iron Ben, What was the reasoning to be conservative loading the pad mount transformer to 125% vs 150% for pole mounted ?

My assumption is that they'll cool better than pad-mounts (more air circulation and all that). Also pole-tops tend to be smaller than pad-mounts, and that has to be part of the equation.

RBMC Just exactly what is this homeowner running with a 30 HP air compressor ?

Now, that is a question, isn't it.
 
Off Topic Iron Ben, What was the reasoning to be conservative loading the pad mount transformer to 125% vs 150% for pole mounted ? I assume pole mounted transformers are easier to change than pad mount. I do not Know ?

RBMC Just exactly what is this homeowner running with a 30 HP air compressor ?

I don't know exactly why from a physics perspective our guidelines were 150% for overhead and 125% for padmounts. Surely the increased airflow over pole top transformers plays a part. Design and manufacturing particulars were a factor as well. As at most any electric utility, we had mountains of performance data available and looking at it showed that pushing to those values for peak loading didn't increase failure rates. Of course a fairly normal load curve was assumed. We had a saying that if you never fail a transformer due to overload, you're not loading them enough.

Ben
 
Thanks everyone for the valuable information. The customer has decided to purchase a portable propane generator and not fight with utility company. I hope I'm posting this to the right thread.
 
Thanks everyone for the valuable information. The customer has decided to purchase a portable propane generator and not fight with utility company. I hope I'm posting this to the right thread.
That's not gonna solve his problem. He'd need something like a 40kw generator. Might as well ditch the roto-phase and get a big enough three phase generator.
 
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