Some cost numbers

[gar]

170415-1717 EDT

For last year my costs were:

Natural gas
0.719/CCF or 0.0245/kWh

Electricity
0.158/kWh or 6.45 times more expensive than gas, no way to justify a heat pump

Water
0.719.CCF or 0.011/gallon --- high compared to times past

.

 

[kwired]

170415-1717 EDT

For last year my costs were:

Natural gas
0.719/CCF or 0.0245/kWh

Electricity
0.158/kWh or 6.45 times more expensive than gas, no way to justify a heat pump

Water
0.719.CCF or 0.011/gallon --- high compared to times past

.

Were do you wish to go with this information?

As far as the heat pump goes -you need to figure how many BTU of heat that heat pump can move before you can say it will cost more then gas to operate. Cost per kWh would only apply to straight resistance heating, heat pumps don't create heat from the kW input they move heat that is already present somwhere, but how much energy they use depends on the efficiency of the system being used, and for air to air heat pumps that efficiency does go down as the outdoor temp decreases.

 

[kwired]

One of my HVAC friends said last year that the cost of gas did go down enough that it is harder to justify a geothermal heat pump though. Not that it isn't more efficient then gas, but the payback period is too long compared to just spending the money on gas right now.

 

[Fnewman]

Kinda depends on where you live and how many hours per year the heat pump will be able to operate at its maximum efficiency range. Lots of hear pumps in this region, but almost more in Miami, for example. Personally, I prefer gas for other reasons, cooking and water heating as well.

 

[gar]

170416-1346 EDT

kwired:

The thread can go anywhere you wish. I would like to see some numbers from other parts of the country. California will be high for electricity. State of Washington is probably low. We have one of the lower cost areas for gas. It is bought at low cost times and stored in western Michigan for winter use. Water costs have gone way up over the last 20 to 30 years because of environmental regulations.

A ground based heat pump probably provides about an average of 3 to 4 times multiplication of input energy at a much greater initial cost than a gas furnace, and probably has a maintenance cost considerably higher. There are parts of the country where a heat pump will have a considerable advantage over gas.

I base my cost values on the total cost per year including all taxes and other miscellaneous fees added to the basic cost of the energy. 1000 BTUs = 0.293 kilowatt hour, or 1 kWh = 3413 BTU.

Back in the 1930s our electricity was about 0.025/kWh. Much higher than our present cost in normalized dollars. But light bulbs were free on a replacement basis, main fuses were replaced in about 1 hour at no direct cost, and burned out street lights got replaced in about 1 hour, today your lucky if it is quicker than two weeks. Gas was manufactured, not natural, until the mid 1050s. Thus, gas was much more costly than today in normalized dollars, but still very good for a cook stove.

.

 

[K8MHZ]

170415-1717 EDT

For last year my costs were:

Natural gas
0.719/CCF or 0.0245/kWh

Electricity
0.158/kWh or 6.45 times more expensive than gas, no way to justify a heat pump

Water
0.719.CCF or 0.011/gallon --- high compared to times past

.

Yep. That's why I switched to a gas range last year (and because I like cooking with gas) and several years ago I installed a ventless radiant gas space heater to replace an electric portable. My water heater is also gas, as is my furnace, and my furnace is 96% efficient and uses PVC for a chimney. The exhaust only gets about 80 degrees.

I have replaced most of my lights with LED's.

My energy use has plummeted.

Ten years ago, with no attempts at all toward energy efficiency, a cold winter month's bills would be nearly $200 for gas and 50-70 for electricity. Now a bad month is $60 for gas and $50 for electricity. Electricity has went from about 11 cents to over 15 over that time period.

 

[kwired]

170416-1346 EDT

kwired:

The thread can go anywhere you wish. I would like to see some numbers from other parts of the country.

I don't have any gas, would have to be LP if I did, but last I read we were about 10th lowest of all states on average electricity cost, with most of those top 10 being really close to each other on rates.

My current electric rate is .1015 kWh, but in winter months (Oct thru May) drops to .1005, and with electric heat I also am on a rate plan that charges the usual .1005 for the first 1000 kWh, and goes to .0625 for the next 4000kWh, anything excess of that goes back to .1005.

I have well water so no water bill.

My monthly electric bills seem to average between $175 - 275 depending on how hot or cold it has been, with no other energy bills. I do have a geothermal heat pump, it does dump some heat into my water heater tank - especially in cooling season, but it is an electric storage tank type water heater that does kick in the electric element if water is being used faster then the heat pump can keep up, or in spring or fall when heat pump isn't running much.

 

[junkhound]

170415-1717 EDT Natural gas
0.719/CCF or 0.0245/kWh
Electricity
0.158/kWh or 6.45 times more expensive than gas, no way to justify a heat pump
.

King Co Washington, PSE provider.

NG
91 cents CCF (for 82% eff furnace, equates to 3.1 cents kWhr)

Elec
11.6 cents kWhr
Puget Sound Energy
(Cities of Seattle and Tacoma and Snohomish and Lewis Co PUDs much lower)


I have ground source HP with COP of 5.4 at own house. DW deathly afraid of gas since a neighbor's house blew up when she was a child, so will never have gas in our house. 11.6/5.4 = 2.14 cents kWhr equivalent for heat, beats the 3.1 cents for gas.
BTW, opinion: Induction cooktop beats even gas for speed and convenience.


Son has a dual system, HP or gas, has automatic changeover from HP to gas (changeover to HP set at >45 F prior to last year, when gas prices were over $1.20 CCF, = 4.1 cents kW-hr)

Last year PSE dropped gas prices appreciably. Since his air-air HP has COP of only around 3.2 at even 55F, 11.6/3.2 = 3.65 cents kW-hr, so now just leaves heat on gas furnace, no switchover to HP.

Am also on a well, have separate kWhr meter on pumphouse. Average 'water bill' under $2 a month. Was over $10 once when a pipe broke undetected out to the garden, but that was a few acre feet of water that ran off!

Have GE hybrid water heater, also on separate kW-hr meter, 1/3 the cost for HW vs. the old resistance WH.


edit PS: Recall central IL, near big inch pipeline. NG was only 4 cents per CCF up until early 1970's, heard tell that NG was FREE in parts of Louisiana back in the 50's - some small fixed distribution cost, gas was free.

 

[infinity]

Natural gas around here is super cheap, electricity super expensive. My natural gas monthly budget plan is $53/month or $636.00 per year. That's for heat, hot water, gas range, gas dryer and gas barbecue.

By contrast electric is $223.00/month on the budget plan or $2676 per year.

 

[kwired]

Natural gas around here is super cheap, electricity super expensive. My natural gas monthly budget plan is $53/month or $636.00 per year. That's for heat, hot water, gas range, gas dryer and gas barbecue.

By contrast electric is $223.00/month on the budget plan or $2676 per year.

What is some of your major electric load? Cooling probably biggest load, but has to be other items to get you that high considering most common heating appliances are all gas.

 

[infinity]

Mostly AC which runs about $400/month during the middle of the summer. Electric rates are pretty high in the Northeast.

 

[Dzboyce]

Just looked at my electricity bill. Our residence is 100% electric.

Grant County PUD, owns and operates two hydroelectric dams on the Columbia river. We have about 7 or 8 rate classes. I think the Data farms pay about a penny per kWh.

For domestic services my rate is; Basic charge @ $.051/day. energy charge @ $0.04455/KWH. Jan 24 to feb 23, we used 4,159 KWH. Total bill for month was $200.18. Our high usage was in January at 5280 KWh. Our low usage for the year was October at about 1250 kWh.

 

[Dzboyce]

My shop is general service rate. The rate for is is Basic service @ $0.95/day and Energy charge @ $0.041/kWh I have 230v 3 phase service at my shop.

 

[hbiss]

Electric rates are pretty high in the Northeast.

gar, you had to give me a headache first thing in the morning. I'm just north of NYC in Westchester. We pay the highest rates in the nation, and one reason (in my opinion) is that we subsidize NYC with their 100 year old underground distribution and central steam plants.

Every month Con Edison sends me this silly report card that tells me that I use 30-50% more electric than my neighbors. My "neighbors" are divided into two groups: the energy efficient ones and the (I guess because they don't describe them) normal ones. All they say is these are 100 of my neighbors who have similar houses and lifestyles as my family. Really? Have they been peeping through my windows? I know there is some solar here, are those the energy efficient ones? There is some guy down the street with a stack for a wood burning stove and I notice box fans in the windows in the summer. Is he energy efficient and how would they know?

Funny story. Years ago I did a service change for this guy who lived alone. I look at his Con Ed bill to get the account number and notice a grand total of $15. At that time that was the minimum charge for service. Trying to figure out why, in talking I find that he goes to work in the morning, maybe turns on one light if it's dark out. After work he goes right to a bar and gets drunk. Comes home, maybe turns the light on again to see where the bed is. Nothing in the frig except maybe a few beers, so I expect it's unplugged most of the time. Oil heat with one circulator and he probably turns the heat down to 55. Goes hunting for weeks at a time.

So I expect that this guy would be in the energy efficient group too.

-Hal

 

[electrofelon]

Is electricity really cheap right now? I am paying 10 to 11 cents, including taxes but not the $17 monthly service charge. I always heard the northeast had some of the highest rates (I am in upstate NY) and was up around high teens (I just got electricity a few months ago so never really paid much attention until recently).

No natural gas in most areas here, so It s got to be LP which is quite a bit more. As others have mentioned, Must include efficiency and coefficient of performance when comparing electric to gas. Probably quite a range of those numbers depending on type and age. I know the best gas stoves (heating not cooking) are only around 70% efficient. Those newer boilers/on demand heaters that vent with PVC are much higher.

Another factor is if you want AC. If you do, you can kill two birds with one stone with a heat pump so that may skew it more in that direction.

 

[K8MHZ]

Is electricity really cheap right now? I am paying 10 to 11 cents, including taxes but not the $17 monthly service charge. I always heard the northeast had some of the highest rates (I am in upstate NY) and was up around high teens (I just got electricity a few months ago so never really paid much attention until recently).

No natural gas in most areas here, so It s got to be LP which is quite a bit more. As others have mentioned, Must include efficiency and coefficient of performance when comparing electric to gas. Probably quite a range of those numbers depending on type and age. I know the best gas stoves (heating not cooking) are only around 70% efficient. Those newer boilers/on demand heaters that vent with PVC are much higher.

Another factor is if you want AC. If you do, you can kill two birds with one stone with a heat pump so that may skew it more in that direction.

My furnace isn't steam, it's just NG. It's 96% efficient and vents through PVC. It's amazing how much heat such a small furnace produces. The tech carried it down the stairs by himself. The furnace it replaced was so big it had to be taken out in sections.

 

[gar]

170419-2116 EDT

To come up with a meaningful cost per unit of energy I like to use the total yearly cost of all charges for the particular type of energy and divide this by the total cost of that energy for the year. This provides an average cost per unit of energy. This method includes all incidental additional charges or credits.

Done on a single month for my 2017 March bill I get 170.96/1090 = 0.157 $/kWh. My last year value from post #1 was 0.158 . So last years average was a good predictor of this last month's cost.

Last month for electrical energy I was charged 0.08035 for 561 kWh = 45.08, and 0.09599 for 529 kWh = 50.78 . An average value of $ 0.088/kWh.

For last month the electrical distribution cost was 0.05576 for 1090 kWh = 60.78 . An average value of $ 0.056/kWh.

The total for energy and distribution is 0.088+0.056 = $ 0.144/kWh. Thus, other costs and credits are 0.157-0.144 = 0.013 or 9%. 6% should be state sales tax. But it appears the sales tax is only on part of the bill.

When our existing coal fired plants are producing electricity the out of plant cost is about $ 0.03/kWh.

The two tier energy cost is a result of lawyers in Lansing using law to try to get electric customers to conserve energy. Totally stupid and probably had no affect on energy use. Just made the bill more complex. Consumers are generally ignorant of how individual electrical loads affect their electric bill. However, they do see results from using LEDs.

Every month my bill has two bar graph plots showing my average usage per day on a monthly basis, one for electricity and the other for gas.

For the last year from this March back my average minimum daily electrical usage averaged from 22.2 to 36.6 kWh per day. Their calculation will come from the total for the billing period divided by the days in the billing period. Some individual days may have been less and and others higher. My minimum was June and maximum February. Part of this difference results from the furnace blower motor. But in other ways my usage can be quite variable and could mask seasonal variations.

For gas my seasonal variation is much more meaningful. The minimum was 0.8 CCF and maximum was 13.5 CCF. Thus, it is reasonable to say my base requirement is 0.8 CCF for water heating, cooking, and clothes dryer.

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