Something an inspector told me

[paul32]

Like a couple other topics, an inspector told me something I think is wrong. He was explaining to me receptacle placement requirements assuming I didn't know, and said the 6 feet starts after the area behind the door, and if you put a receptacle behind the door it wouldn't count to meet the requirements. I asked where in the code that was and he didn't offer a reference.

I suppose they can let you not put an outlet on a short wall behind an open door, but I believe code says it should have one. My house has a couple places like that with no outlet, plus even a small wall over 2 feet with no outlet that isn't behind an open door.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Something an inspector told me

210.52(A)(2) defines wall space as ?any space 2 feet or more in width and unbroken along the floor line by doorways?.? The presence, absence, or status of a door (i.e., open versus closed) is not part of the equation. I agree with you, that the Inspector is wrong. Also, I agree that you need a receptacle in the 2 foot spaces that you have described. If this is an older house, then I can?t speak for codes that were in effect at the time of its construction. But if it were to be built today (if for example you are just moving in, and you are looking to see if the builder missed something), then I think you have a case against the builder.

 

[wayne a]

Re: Something an inspector told me

Went to the IAEI meeting In September 2003 and this question was asked...
The answer the way i understood it was that in the United States (NEC) the space behind the door is included in the six foot measurement...
In Canada the six foot measurement begins at the end of the door swing...

 

[charlie]

Re: Something an inspector told me

Wayne, your statement is correct and the way Ed stated it some time ago.

 

[lrollo]

Re: Something an inspector told me

Here where I live, the inspectors will not consider a recepticle behind a door as part of the required recepticles. They state the measurement of "Usable wall space" starts at the edge of the door when it is opened back against the wall as far as it will go. The other thing they get you on here is, if you have a patio door and there is a 3 or 4 foot glass section that is stationary before you get to the sliding part of the door, that section of stationary glass IS considered usable wall space and you include that in your measurement. Different strokes for different places. Still it all falls under jurisdictional authority as to what they will accept and will not accept.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Something an inspector told me

"Usable wall space"

The NEC does not consider this. The requrements are for wall space. Behind a door absolutely counts.

 

[bill addiss]

Re: Something an inspector told me

A door doesn't have to open up more than 90 degrees to be functional. There's no reason why a piece of furniture can't be right behind the door, and it often is in smaller rooms.

Bill

 

[drtymex]

Re: Something an inspector told me

Well here in florida,indian river county,2ft. or more is considered usable wall space,regardless behind the door or not,and clearly stated in the
code and doesn't specify "behind the door".

 

[iwire]

Re: Something an inspector told me

Guys there are 14 places in the 2002 NEC that the word usable appears, not one of those places has to do with wall space.

Here is the requirement we are talking about.

210.52(A)(2) Wall Space.
As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:

(1)Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings

(2)The space occupied by fixed panels in exterior walls, excluding sliding panels

(3)The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings

Notice part (1) Any space 2 ft or more in width including space measured around corners.

Very clear to me the space behind a door is part of the wall space.

lrollo,

The inspectors in your area are mistaken unless there is a local amendment.

by paul32

I suppose they can let you not put an outlet on a short wall behind an open door, but I believe code says it should have one. My house has a couple places like that with no outlet, plus even a small wall over 2 feet with no outlet that isn't behind an open door.

Paul any wall space larger than 2 feet behind a door or not is required to have an outlet by the NEC.

If you have these spaces without outlets perhaps you should speak to the electrician who wired this if it is a new home.

 

[dansan]

Re: Something an inspector told me

In the state of Tennessee the state code amends the NEC and the state code does start the wall space at the end of an open door. So we do not require a plug on a short wall if when the door is open the wall covered by the door.

 

[lrollo]

Re: Something an inspector told me

Like I said Iwire, Jurisdictional Authrority. An inspector can do anything or require anything he wants within the scope of jurisdictional authority as long as it is as good as or better than NEC requirements. Its up to you if its worth arguing over. Unless its going to cost me big bucks, what the inspector says he gets. Have a great day.

[ November 02, 2003, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: lrollo ]

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Something an inspector told me

An inspector can do anything or require anything he wants within the scope of jurisdictional authority as long as it is as good as or better than NEC requirements. Its up to you if its worth arguing over. Unless its going to cost me big bucks, what the inspector says he gets.

What an odd statement. This must be a miserable way to function. Where I live this is not the way things operate nor should it be. Our inspectors are bound enforce requirements of the NEC with Massachusetts amendments which are official laws adopted by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Thats it plain and simple. There are no "inspectors rules" or "because I like it that way" around here. I thought those days were over.

 

[iwire]

Re: Something an inspector told me

Sure makes it tough to bid competitively if you do not know the "rules" of one guy as opposed to the next I would think.

 

[pierre]

Re: Something an inspector told me

When an installer knows and understands the code, including local amendments, there is usually little problem with an inspector. In our area we had issues with an inspector who had his 'own' code, and after a group of contractors wrote a letter and a couple of years, he was released from his duties.
What I have learned as long as you treat the inspector fairly and know your code, they will like working with you and on 'ocassion' you will have 'debates' over the issue.
Remember also that the inspector spends all day looking at work and some of it is pretty bad.

Pierre

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Something an inspector told me

Originally posted by lrollo:
Like I said Iwire, Jurisdictional Authrority. An inspector can do anything or require anything he wants within the scope of jurisdictional authority as long as it is as good as or better than NEC requirements. Its up to you if its worth arguing over. Unless its going to cost me big bucks, what the inspector says he gets. Have a great day.

That whole idea scares me. We all have read about some "loose cannon" inspectors on this forum. Giving them that kind of authority is not only a bad idea, it is dangerous. There are some inspectors, and we all know them, who don't know jack about theory or the how's and why's of electricity. Allowing them to determine what is "as good or better" sounds to me like a recipe for disaster.

 

[batch]

Re: Something an inspector told me

Originally posted by lrollo:
Like I said Iwire, Jurisdictional Authority. An inspector can do anything or require anything he wants within the scope of jurisdictional authority as long as it is as good as or better than NEC requirements. Its up to you if its worth arguing over. Unless its going to cost me big bucks, what the inspector says he gets. Have a great day.

Actually that should read "As long as the inspector thinks that it is as good or better than the NEC requirements." He has already deemed his self superior to the entire NEC board.

I find most of the inspectors who make their own codes are far inferior in knowledge to those who site standards in the specific.

I have always requested a written code reference and was not unamused at receiving a redtag on an outline lighting system that specified an air conditioning code. With the apology that this was the closest thing he could find and that he was sure he was right. LOL

 

[hurk27]

Re: Something an inspector told me

I wish we had a page here that we could look up the building laws of each state as to how much authority each state allows the local AHJ to have.
Here in Indiana, They have removed most of the inspectors ability to adopt code on the fly. (but some still do) and also have removed 90.4 from the Indiana Electrical code. It now just points to Indiana law codes that only gives the state building commissioner the power to interpret the code. most building codes (They are allowed to adopt smoke detectors) that a local unit of government want to adopt has to go before the state and be accepted before it can be adopted into local law. Of course we have a few towns that don't think so as a statement by one AHJ was "local code supercedes state" LOL
But the problem here is most don't fight it as tieing up a job in court would be more costly.