Sorry, But I Have To Ask...LV Lighting?

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360Youth

360Youth

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Location
Newport, NC
I know this is one of the never-ending subjects, but I am starting a new home and did a walk-thru with the decorator today and she wants tons of puck lights in and under cabinets. I am looking more at the new LED pucks opposed to the bun-warming halogens, but my main question is approved wire/cable from transformer to individual lights. For years I wired with 2 conductor lamp cord and never had any inspection issues (right or wrong, I never got called on it).
 
360Youth said:
For years I wired with 2 conductor lamp cord and never had any inspection issues (right or wrong, I never got called on it).
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You were lucky. I the lamp cord was hidden behind walls etc. then you would be in violation. I came from a job 2 weeks ago---million plus house--- the electrician wired all the pucks with telephone wire.

If the wire is concealed you wust use wiring methods of Chapter 3.
 
stickboy1375 said:
Right or wrong you would need to follow Art. 411, especially 411.4.
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What alternatives are there for the wire other than romex for LV wiring. There has got to be something other than a 14-2 romex to a puck light.

stickboy1375 said:
IMSO puck lights are only for DIY'ers...
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Don't care much for them, either. They can be done right under the right circumstances, but what else is there? Especially in the top of a glass shelf cabinet.
 
360Youth said:
What alternatives are there for the wire other than romex for LV wiring. There has got to be something other than a 14-2 romex to a puck light.
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You can use MC, or any other wiring method in chapter 3,


360Youth said:
Don't care much for them, either. They can be done right under the right circumstances, but what else is there? Especially in the top of a glass shelf cabinet.
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There is a change that has been accepted for the 2005 NEC that will relax the requirements in 411.4 by permitting Class 2 wiring methods to be used and concealed within walls, floors, and ceilings where the power supply is a listed Class 2 power supply and the wiring is installed in accordance with 725.52. There may be a drawback to this new permissive rule that should be considered. Tables 11(A) and 11(B) in chapter 9 do not permit a Class 2 power supply to have nameplate wattage that exceeds 100 VA or amperage that exceeds 5 amps at 30 volts or less. Comparing this 5-ampere value to the 25-ampere and higher wattage permission granted in Article 411 for low-voltage lighting systems will severely restrict the use of Class 2 power units. Class 2 power supplies will, however, provide an alternative cable that can be installed inside walls, ceilings, floors, cabinets, and other spaces where chapter 3 wiring methods were not easily installed.
 
Thom , I know of no way to make puck lights compliant once the wire is hidden behind walls, etc. If you use nm then you would need to terminate in jb at the light. I haven't seen any pucks that would allow this for UC installation.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Thom , I know of no way to make puck lights compliant once the wire is hidden behind walls, etc. If you use nm then you would need to terminate in jb at the light. I haven't seen any pucks that would allow this for UC installation.
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How is this done so often/ The lights are everywhere and I have never known one to not pass inspection. I hate saying that I have done it for years, but it is one of those things..."It's how I was taught and never been tagged for it, so I never needed to check otherwise." Now we have these some-what industry standard lights and installs that you have to explain to HO and designer that they cannot have. I might as well let my ignorance on the subject flow, but what restrictions do we have on a thermostat wire being used? (I am reading, I just lose track of the code jumps sometimes. :roll: )

Edit for spelling.
 
Thermostat wiring is a different issue then lv lighting. Art. 411.4 (A)(1) gives us what we need to know. Why I do not know for I have sinned many times in the past also before the inspectors in Durham set me straight. I cussed and screamed but they were right.

NEC2008 411.4 said:
(A) Walls, floors, ceilings. Conductors concealed or extended through a wall, floor, or ceiing shall be in accordance with (1) or (2)
1) Installed using any of the wiring methods of Chapter 3
2) Installed using wiring supplied by a listed Class 2 power source and installed in accordance with 725.130
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i just finished 2 high end houses.on both they used the xeon undercounter lights.uses 120v so you can use nmb.has built in lv trans.not near as hot as a puck light.very easy to mount and you can connect different lengths to get the total you want.also has a switch on them where you can have bright or dim.looked real good.
http://www.brodwax.com/xenon.html
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Thermostat wiring is a different issue then lv lighting. Art. 411.4 (A)(1) gives us what we need to know. Why I do not know for I have sinned many times in the past also before the inspectors in Durham set me straight. I cussed and screamed but they were right.
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Is the cable itself acceptable under the allowances of 411.4 (A)(2) and 725.82(C)? Providing one can be found marked resistant to fire.

stickboy1375 said:
There may be a drawback to this new permissive rule that should be considered. Tables 11(A) and 11(B) in chapter 9 do not permit a Class 2 power supply to have nameplate wattage that exceeds 100 VA or amperage that exceeds 5 amps at 30 volts or less. Comparing this 5-ampere value to the 25-ampere and higher wattage permission granted in Article 411 for low-voltage lighting systems will severely restrict the use of Class 2 power units. Class 2 power supplies will, however, provide an alternative cable that can be installed inside walls, ceilings, floors, cabinets, and other spaces where chapter 3 wiring methods were not easily installed.
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Just a quick search, but I think this would qualify and maybe leave ample room for these?

I would prefer not having this conversation period, outside of the much needed educational aspect (thanks to all, BTW :smile: ), but the designer threw me for a loop with the number of puck lights she has in plan. I thought I talked her out of them for many of these reasons, but apparently I only knew part of her intentions. :roll:
 
zdog said:
i just finished 2 high end houses.on both they used the xeon undercounter lights.uses 120v so you can use nmb.has built in lv trans.not near as hot as a puck light.very easy to mount and you can connect different lengths to get the total you want.also has a switch on them where you can have bright or dim.looked real good.
http://www.brodwax.com/xenon.html
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I might get by with those under the cabinet. I have used them before, but the issue will be in the tops of the upper cabinets.
 
360Youth said:
I might get by with those under the cabinet. I have used them before, but the issue will be in the tops of the upper cabinets.
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Thom. If you install the recep. at the top of the cabinet and lay the puck out up there with the wiring exposed then there is no issue. I have done that before. You need a small valence around the top to hid the lights and the receptacle.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Thom. If you install the recep. at the top of the cabinet and lay the puck out up there with the wiring exposed then there is no issue. I have done that before. You need a small valence around the top to hid the lights and the receptacle.
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True, I have thought of that but failed to get to that question. Maybe on part II tomorrow.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Thom. If you install the recep. at the top of the cabinet and lay the puck out up there with the wiring exposed then there is no issue. I have done that before. You need a small valence around the top to hid the lights and the receptacle.
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one of the ones i did had glass shelves on both sides of the sink and 3 on another wall installed pucks there.i did the same thing.on the other side of the kitchen was a loft that looked over the kitchen and liveing room.we had the painter paint the tops of the cabinets black you can hardly see the plug and tops of the lights or the trans.
 
I am getting dizzy with the Art. 725 code jumps, but I am wondering if a CL2 cable, fire and/or plenum rated is acceptable for Art 300 wiring methods? My '05 NEC is at the house, but I believe it is in or starts at 725.82.
 
360Youth said:
I am getting dizzy with the Art. 725 code jumps, but I am wondering if a CL2 cable, fire and/or plenum rated is acceptable for Art 300 wiring methods? My '05 NEC is at the house, but I believe it is in or starts at 725.82.
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I am also away from home but I believe that in order to use a wiring method other than chapter 3 the lights , trans, wiring etc must be listed as a lighting system.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I am also away from home but I believe that in order to use a wiring method other than chapter 3 the lights , trans, wiring etc must be listed as a lighting system.
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I believe so, too, but I was not thinking of the wiring as part of the listed system. I will read some more. Thanks.
 
Try the Herra puck lights for under cabinet lighting. They come 3 to a pack with quick connect terminals and a 60 watt transformer. For the top of the cabinet, try Juno trac 12. Juno makes a 60 watt transformer that terminates at the end feed of the track.
 
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