Sorry guys...my first post will be a question...need help bad!

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banditz

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Well, after the foreman left today...with teh truck to go get supplies..yeah right, gone for three hours! And came back without anything....I was forced to use two blacks, a blue,white, and ground..in a pvc pipe that fed a outdoor light. We have several of these lights, and this one just happened to be the shortest but hardest pull...anyway I phased one of the blacks red on both ends. Well, when he got back, and just as we had finished..he informs me that is against code? Since when I asked him and he said well, its been in the books for the last eight or so years....Well, I have looked all though my damn book and can't find anything at all that could pertain to this being against code! Well, besides maybe...maybe 90.4....but that's a long shot isn't it? Wouldn't the code for branch circuits...sec. 210.5c come into effect here? I have been laid off for the last year...but hell we always use to phase conductors all the time. And always passed..lol. Did we just get lucky? I know its been awhile, but did I forget that much? Any help tonight would be great...its almost 12 here, and I would love to go in and tell him I was not wrong he is. But also, if I am wrong, I need to man up and let him know I feel bad for doubting him! Just seems like there should be no problem for this..Guys???:confused::confused::confused:
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Welcome to the forum. :)

Watch your language. :)

Depending on the size of conductors, the grounds and neutrals could not be identified that way, however I do believe it's okay for ungrounded conductors; 210.5(C), as you referenced.
 

banditz

Member
Oh yeah...sorry its late. I understand the grounded conductors...but the ungrounded conductor is what I am asking about. I just put two rings of red tape around the same wire on each end and he said I was dead wrong...no if's and's or but's. And that it had been like this for several years. Eight to be exact. He said that in the nec...any conductor under size 4 could not be phased. Now....how in the world?

And thank you, I think i have just found my new favorite website! Wish I would have known about this forum years ago!
 

banditz

Member
ok...so even if I had pulled in all black then phased them the way I wanted them...(yes except for grounded)... then it is in fact legal. Ok...now anyone have a code reference I can show him? Or am I right in sec. 210.5c? I wondered how this was not legal...I had done it so many times before...thousands..lol. Just never really thought ya know...kinda one of those things that are "known"...so i never even looked it up...
 

resistance

Senior Member
Location
WA
I agree. I see no reason why you would fail for phasing an ungrounded conductor any color but gray, white or green.
 

e57

Senior Member
Not sure where you are - but - a local code may apply? For instance - one here in the city I work in says just that...

210.5(C). Revise this section as follows:

210.5(C). Ungrounded Conductors. Each ungrounded conductor of a branch circuit, where accessible, shall be identified by system. The means of identification shall be permitted to be by separate color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved means, and shall be permanently posted at each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branch-circuit distribution equipment.
Conductor insulation shall contain continuous color pigment for circuit wire #14 AWG through #10 AWG. Ungrounded conductors #8 AWG and larger and ungrounded conductors of any size in cable assemblies may be suitably identified at pull junction and outlet boxes.
Conductor insulation shall be:
(1) 120/240 volt 3-wire circuits - ?A? phase black, ?B? phase red; 120/208 volt 4-wire 3-phase wye circuits - ?A? phase black, ?B? phase red, ?C? phase blue; 120/240 volt 3-phase delta circuits - ?A? phase black, ?B? (high leg) phase purple, ?C? phase red; 277/480 volt 4-wire 3-phase wye circuits - ?A? phase brown, ?B? phase orange, ?C? phase yellow. Ungrounded conductors for other voltages shall be identified by different color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved means.
See Section 200.7 for limitations on re-identification of white or grey conductors.
(2) Conductors for switch legs may be of a different color than the ungrounded circuit conductor when suitably identified at pull, junction and outlet boxes with marking tape, tagging or other equally effective means. The color green, white or grey shall not be used for identification.
Exception: Extensions of existing non-color coded wiring systems need not be color coded.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
The conductor is already identified as an ungrounded conductor since it's insulation is Black. You could certainly put a turn of marking tape on each end to further distinguish it from the other conductors. IMO this is no different than using a number on the conductor.
 

TOOL_5150

Senior Member
Location
bay area, ca
The conductor is already identified as an ungrounded conductor since it's insulation is Black. You could certainly put a turn of marking tape on each end to further distinguish it from the other conductors. IMO this is no different than using a number on the conductor.
Yeah, Just like a control cabinet that has 400 wires, and they are all red. Though, each one is numbered.

~Matt
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Is this a building with more than one voltage system? If so is the use of tape to identify the phase and voltage listed on the sign at each panel? If so there is no issue, if not you have a violation of 210.4 (2002), or 210.5 for the newer codes.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Is this a building with more than one voltage system? If so is the use of tape to identify the phase and voltage listed on the sign at each panel? If so there is no issue, if not you have a violation of 210.4 (2002), or 210.5 for the newer codes.
Not sure what you're saying??
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Is this a building with more than one voltage system? If so is the use of tape to identify the phase and voltage listed on the sign at each panel? If so there is no issue, if not you have a violation of 210.4 (2002), or 210.5 for the newer codes.
Don, as long as he tagged the ungrounded conductors (I think he stated he taped one red), would that not meet the requirements of 210.5 ?
 

e57

Senior Member
He's saying that if there is more than one voltage system (i.e. a transformer to go from 480 to 208 on the premises) then you need a sign to indicate what colors mean what.

Or if say there were two or more transformers - each of the 208/120 systems would need to differ, and be identified... As would the neutrals for each.

Anyway barring some local code it would seem the OP is correct.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
ok...so even if I had pulled in all black then phased them the way I wanted them...(yes except for grounded)... then it is in fact legal. Ok...now anyone have a code reference I can show him? Or am I right in sec. 210.5c? I wondered how this was not legal...I had done it so many times before...thousands..lol. Just never really thought ya know...kinda one of those things that are "known"...so i never even looked it up...
The way to deal with NEC is unless you can find a number it violates then it is legal. Your foreman may be a good electrician but he seems full of bad information that he will pass off onto his men. Be nice about it and ask him to show you the number he thinks you violated. Tell him to take his time and get back to you LOL
 
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