Spa 6666 and all CU conductors

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I don't believe they can have any influence on any existing feeders. Only the branch circuit? Or are they threatening to void the warranty?
 
The manufacturers instructions are, imo, a major problem as they are merely trying to cover their butts. The NEC is a minimum, no doubt, however their are millions of tubs out their that do not have a egc the same size as the phase conductors. Imo, it would be useless to run a feeder that feeds the hot tub with an egc smaller than the branch circuit to the tub.

I also believe that a feeder that feeds a hot tub alone should not be considered a feeder but if their is OCPD then that is a feeder by definition.

So run a wire to a disconnect without OCPD then the feed is a branch circuit. Add an OCPD and all of a sudden the same wire becomes a feeder. It does not make sense in this case. Sorry for the rant.
 
I think anytime you fail to follow the directions you are reducing your chances of defending yourself in court if something goes wrong.

I like to follow the directions and charge accordingly for doing so. If they wanted an unprofessional job they could have hired a handyman from Craig's list.
 
Glennsparky said:
But can they legally supersede the NEC for feeders?
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No they cannot supersede the NEC but they can exceed the NEC.

In my opinion to supersede would be to reduce the requirements of the NEC and that is not allowed.

But they can certainly exceed the requirements.
 
I have not yet seen a requirement like this for the EGC's or feeders, most manufactures will require over sized conductors for ungrounded and the grounded and the EGC is required to be sized for the circuit.

I have seen a few that require copper for the branch circuit but not feeders, if this is the case then how can we ever feed them from a sub panel that might be fed with SER?

Is the OP talking about a spa, Hydromassage tub or a hot tub? I know some call a hot tub a spa? What size circuits are we talking about?

Dennis I don't understand this statement:
Imo, it would be useless to run a feeder that feeds the hot tub with an egc smaller than the branch circuit to the tub.
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EGC only need to be required to handle fault current? a 60 amp branch circuit/feeder can have a #10 EGC
 
hurk27 said:
Dennis I don't understand this statement:
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-- that's your problem :D--- What I am saying is if the tub calls for a full size egc it would be meaningless to do that only on the branch circuit side and not on the feeder wire. If the feeder is a #10 EGC what good is a #6 EGC to the tub???? I think it is BS anyway.

EGC only need to be required to handle fault current? a 60 amp branch circuit/feeder can have a #10 EGC
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Yes but I have seen many tubs call for a full size egc not reduced as the NEC allows.
 
Glennsparky said:
The manuals seldom differentiate between feeders and branch circuits. It's implied they are referring to both.
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It is hard to know the implication but it makes sense that both should be the same. This is why I pipe all hot tubs. It avoids problems and it covers my butt.

We have dealt with this with hydromassage tubs which call for the bond to go back to the panel. NEC clearly states this as not necessary yet the manufacturers call for it to cover potential liability
 
I don't see the problem.

Lots of things have lugs that are listed only for copper. Spas also require disconnects. Whay not just run copper from the disconnect to the spa, and aluminum back to the panel?
 
OP seemed to be objecting to the copper wire requirement.

Ground size? NEC calls for a full-size insulated ground - I think the '11 lets the outer jacket of a cable count - for an indoor spa. I can't imagine any reason an outdoor spa would be different, even if the code panel failed to spell it out. Otherwise, the 'insulated' requirement would eliminate Romex and SER, as they have reduced grounds as well as uninsulated grounds.
 
renosteinke said:
OP seemed to be objecting to the copper wire requirement.

Ground size? NEC calls for a full-size insulated ground - I think the '11 lets the outer jacket of a cable count - for an indoor spa. I can't imagine any reason an outdoor spa would be different, even if the code panel failed to spell it out. Otherwise, the 'insulated' requirement would eliminate Romex and SER, as they have reduced grounds as well as uninsulated grounds.
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We are talking EGC. If the tub calls for a full sized egc then NM cable would not be compliant as it does not have a full size EGC . Art. 680 .42(C) allows nm to be used for the indoor portion of the wiring however if the manufacturer wants a full sized EGC then this is not an option
 
Dennis Alwon said:
We are talking EGC. If the tub calls for a full sized egc then NM cable would not be compliant as it does not have a full size EGC . Art. 680 .42(C) allows nm to be used for the indoor portion of the wiring however if the manufacturer wants a full sized EGC then this is not an option
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But where does the full size requirement end? At the branch circuit origin? At the feeder origin?

Same for where does copper conductor requirement end?

Mr. Homeowner will not be happy when he finds out he needs to replace a couple hundred feet of aluminum service lateral with copper on his 400 amp service just because the instructions for the hot tub call for copper supply conductors. $6000 hot tub and $20,000 to install it.:jawdrop:
 
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