Spa interior wiring to outdoor installations

[fcfjr]

Am I correct in understanding that 680.42(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations is requiring a copper equipment grounding conductor for the portion of the circuit run under a dwelling and through the walls? If that is correct then a 60 amp circuit using NM cable would need to be 4-3 with ground NM to meet the requirement of 334.80?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Most Spas are 50 amp however if the overcurrent protective device for a tub is 60 then the load is probably less than 55 amps so a 6/3 WG NM cable should work.

 

[kwired]

I agree with Dennis that unless minimum conductor ampacity required is more then 55 that you could use 6 AWG NM cable on a 60 amp breaker.

Question may be whether a spa is a continuous load, or at least what portions of the load are continuous and does 125% of continuous plus all other load able to run simultaneously give you more then 55 amps?

Initial heating of a spa when first filled likely takes more then 3 hours. After that I'd guess they seldom get three hours of any kind of continuous load, at least at a dwelling location.

 

[fcfjr]

Thank you for your responses. The spa manufacturer lists the spa as 40-50-60 amps. The sales person told the owner that the circuit size determines the amount of equipment that can be run at the same time and the owners wish to be able to operate everything at the same time. The other part I'm curious abut is if 680.42(C) is requiring a copper grounding conductor in walls and crawl area of the dwelling.

 

[kwired]

Thank you for your responses. The spa manufacturer lists the spa as 40-50-60 amps. The sales person told the owner that the circuit size determines the amount of equipment that can be run at the same time and the owners wish to be able to operate everything at the same time. The other part I'm curious abut is if 680.42(C) is requiring a copper grounding conductor in walls and crawl area of the dwelling.

Does that mean it draws 40-50-60 amps or that is the max OCPD for each "setting". As already mentioned if load is no more then 55 amps you can protect 60 C, 6 AWG at 60 amps.

680.42(C) requires a copper EGC. It does allow it to be bare but must still be within the outer sheath of the wiring method used, such as what is typical with NM cable.

 

[Little Bill]

Does that mean it draws 40-50-60 amps or that is the max OCPD for each "setting". As already mentioned if load is no more then 55 amps you can protect 60 C, 6 AWG at 60 amps.

680.42(C) requires a copper EGC. It does allow it to be bare but must still be within the outer sheath of the wiring method used, such as what is typical with NM cable.

The listed amps are dependent on whether you're running one pump & one heater, two pumps and one heater, etc. They are the max for each and already include the 125%.

#6 is the largest I have ever run to a tub with these amp listings.

I believe you can use an Al. EGC indoors to the spa disconnect outside, then copper to the tub.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I believe a copper equipment grounding conductor is required

(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior
of a dwelling unit or in the interior of another building
or structure associated with a dwelling unit, any of the
wiring methods recognized or permitted in Chapter 3 of
this Code that contains a copper equipment grounding conductor
that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath
of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be
permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating,
and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot
tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring
to an underwater luminaire shall comply with 680.23 or
680.33.

 

[kwired]

I believe a copper equipment grounding conductor is required

Same here.

I believe you could run a feeder that supplies pool equipment with an aluminum EGC, but the branch circuits to pool equipment would need a copper EGC.

Sure someone will point out where it is at if I am wrong.

Add, if I am correct then you could run aluminum feeder to the spa disconnect, as long as the disconnect is also a branch circuit device and then the rest of the way to the spa is the branch circuit.

 

[Little Bill]

I believe a copper equipment grounding conductor is required

I read it as if you are going straight to the equipment (in red below) from the inside then copper is required. But if only going to a disconnect then Al could be used to the disconnect but copper from there to the tub.

But then again, a disconnect is required so I don't know how you could go "straight" to the equipment.:blink:

(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior
of a dwelling unit or in the interior of another building
or structure associated with a dwelling unit, any of the
wiring methods recognized or permitted in Chapter 3 of
this Code that contains a copper equipment grounding conductor
that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath
of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be
permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating,
and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot
tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring
to an underwater luminaire shall comply with 680.23 or
680.33.

 

[fcfjr]

Thanks again for all of your replys and opinions.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I read it as if you are going straight to the equipment (in red below) from the inside then copper is required. But if only going to a disconnect then Al could be used to the disconnect but copper from there to the tub.

But then again, a disconnect is required so I don't know how you could go "straight" to the equipment.:blink:

I think you are missing the small tidbit at the end

"or hot tub equipment assembly.

You could be correct but it has never been how I looked at it.

 

[shortcircuit2]

680.42(C) changes when you get to the 2017 Code to...

"any of the wiring methods recognized or permitted in Chaper 3 of this Code shall be permitted..."

No more copper equipment ground language.

 

[Little Bill]

I think you are missing the small tidbit at the end

"or hot tub equipment assembly.

You could be correct but it has never been how I looked at it.

But most of the ones I have hooked up don't come with a disconnect. I have to buy that separately. That's not part of the "assembly".

Anyway, the inspectors here are fine with Al EGC to the disconnect but we must use copper from there to the tub.

 

[kwired]

But most of the ones I have hooked up don't come with a disconnect. I have to buy that separately. That's not part of the "assembly".

Anyway, the inspectors here are fine with Al EGC to the disconnect but we must use copper from there to the tub.

If the disconnect is also the branch circuit overcurrent device - then ahead of it is a feeder.