special systems quote

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dan55

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I am having a problem with a subcontractor who bit the fire alarm and security portion of my electrical bid. It is a remodel for a store. The job has begun and was bid almost a year ago, anyway the owner has decided to do away with the security system and wants a itemized deduct. The security guy gave me one but left out items that were in his scope of work saying he didn't bid them in the first place. When this company bid this project they had a full set of plans and specs.
 
Re: special systems quote

I guess I am not just sure what your issue is. Is your customer demanding a copy of the bid from your subcontractor? Is he entitled to that?

You seem to be saying the security subcontractor never gave you an itemized bid in the first place. That might have been a big problem for you, but your own fault for accepting such a bid. Getting rid of the security system might end up saving you a ton of money, since it sounds like it was never fully covered anyway.

I'd be inclined to give your customer a letter with the deduct listed and a reference to what items in the plans and specs it covers.

[ March 05, 2005, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
 
Re: special systems quote

Keep in mind this is not really a small remodel, and the total bid was well into the six figure area. He did give me list of things that were included but they used a lot of catalog numbers and other things that made it very confusing.
 
Re: special systems quote

it was your responsibilty to deny or accept those catalog numbers and figures before the contract was let. now, you are questioning them. since it sounds like you never knew what a good number was for this work --- you will have to go to someone who can determine if these numbers are legit!!! you are in a no win situation---somebody's gonna be pi$$ed!
 
Re: special systems quote

If the sub priced a package and you now want to deduct a portion of the package, to put it bluntly, he wins. He is under no obligation to give you full deduction for the change. He may even be able to cover the cost of bidding this work with all those catalog numbers, that he now will not install. Sounds like your customer wants to use someone else on this portion of the work. If so that is their choice and they will pay a little more for changing their mind after the game has started. Don't begrudge him this win, as it may affect what still could and should be a profitable project for all parties involved. Hard feelings can ruin a job quicker than a less than compitent inspector. Just give your customer the deduct with all those catalog numbers and move on with the work at hand.
 
Re: special systems quote

My subcontractor has the same spec book i do and it goes into detail what he must give back on deductions. He bid the job as per plan and specs.

[ March 07, 2005, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: dan55 ]
 
Re: special systems quote

dan 55,
lets just say for aurgument sake that the two contracts were equal in bid figures--say the total was 60k and each were 30k. now, he has a investment in many things concerning the security system including the bid--submitals--take offs--personnel--etc.. you don't expect to get a full deduct on this portion of the job right??? sometimes, you give a cheaper price knowing your getting both portions of the job---you are a contractor and should remember how it works???
 
Re: special systems quote

As an integrator I got hosed a few times by submitting overly detailed specifications that were subsequently pulled out of the ec's contract and given to a low-bid guy that couldn't have laid out the project in the first place. We keep our submissions as general as possible now, for a couple of reasons. The pace of improvement in the systems business is very rapid, and with a long project cycle an overly specific bid can be obsoleted by part number changes and product improvements.

The idea is to avoid doing someone else's design work for free and then getting undercut by someone else.

We are mostly design-build now, but sometimes charge for the specifications separately to protect ourselves from this problem.
 
Re: special systems quote

there were no other bids taken because it had an existing system in it and only one company could install new components to the system and the engineer specifications supported that. there are other details that i probably cannot release but to put it bluntly this company seen an opprotunity to cut a fat hog and did and now when they are asked to refund part of what is not needed they are being greedy. I was given a lot price but it appears to me that heat detectors are running for a little over a grand these days.
 
Re: special systems quote

It doesn't appear we will be out anything. I have proved myself on my deductions, the quality control officer, who is neutral ,agrees with us.
 
Re: special systems quote

nobody is saying pay the guy the full contract, but you need to know where he is out of line, you have that responsibility to the owner. but, you are asking this webb page to justify your aurgument with a contractor --- since many of us are contractors we know what you are facing -- you don't know and you have nobody who will contest this guys claims for a deduct. the engineer probibly has a better idea than you -- i would suggest calling a meeting with the engineer-owner-sub contractor-and yourself. every one put their cards on the table and come up with a solution! i have been there---my problem was the engineer made a mistake---then he said he would come up with more changes and extras to make up the difference to cover his mistake --- it was a 60k job with a 27k mistake---how could he come up with 27k in extras and change orders. i wanted to be fair to everyone --- the engineer wanted to save face with the owner and continue to do his work. i ended up sueing the engineer to get my money -- that was covered by his "errors and ommission" insurance -- and he ended up loosing the contract with the owner. i continued to work for the building owner!!!

and some of the responsibility in your case rests on the engineer -- he should have specified that certain equipment was to be installed by the manufacturer's representative if there was not a clear statement that "no alternative systems" were allowed.....
 
Re: special systems quote

"there were no other bids taken because it had an existing system in it and only one company could install new components to the system and the engineer specifications supported that.."

this is precisely why none of our designs specify proprietary equipment or equipment which is restricted in its distribution. i believe it is unethical to marry a client to a single source for ongoing service and supply. once competition is eliminated, even as a possibility, cost discipline goes out the window. it's natural.
 
Re: special systems quote

I would say that once the owner had accepted a bid and had you sub for the alarm system it should not be out of your pocket as it was the owner that defaulted on the deal. If this sub contractor requires a processing fee or like a restock fee then it would be the owner that should pay. we had this happen but it was for an whole house entertainment system with computerized controls for all the lighting. The sub bidder charged for the paper work and other expenses that was our responsibility to pay him we had to request this from the builder who intern was reimbursed from the owner. I feel that yes this sub contractor under us was entitled to work he started even if it was just office work to get things together or what ever but it was the home owner who made changes after the contract was signed.
 
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