split outlet

[jute]

Hi,
I'm replacing a slew of outlets,switches, cvr plates in a office that I ran into a problem and I'm not sure why???The HO wanted to remove a split outlet where top outlet has constant power and bottom outlet was controlled by a wall switch. No PROBLEM... I take off the outlet and put the commons together and cap off the 2 lines. I turn on the breaker and it pops instantly??? I go over and check the original outlet and it shows continuity on the common side and had the bridge connection taken off the line side... I check the connections and find no problem (in my mind)...the commons together and the 2 lines capped off. I turn on the breaker and it pops instantly again? I put on a new outlet with a the bridge taken out and 1 common terminated to each common screw which have continuity and it works fine??? How can the outlet make a difference??? Isn't the connections the same except the outlet?? Thanks, JB

 

[480sparky]

Sounds like you've got two circuits on the device. When you tie the two hots together, you've got a line-to-line short.

Check the voltage between the two hots. If it's 208 or 240, that's the problem. Cap off the switched one and use the constant hot to feed the receptacle.

 

[Oakey]

Those are my thoughts also.

 

[220/221]

You are confused somewhere. Even to do seeminly simple electrical work you need a better understanding of basic circuitry.

For example, You could have a half switched outlet where the white is the hot (NM..to the switch). If you got confused as to the original installation and attached the whites together on the new outlet you mat get a dead short.

 

[LarryFine]

Jute, as alluded to above, it's possible the switched half was controlled via a 2-wire switched loop. Check the switch itself: if it has only a single white and a single black on it, go back to the receptacle and connect it only to the real grounded white and the real constant-hot black.

Also, look for a white connected to one or more blacks inside the receptacle box; that's a clue to a 2-wire loop, too. Plus, when you say "I take off the outlet and put the commons together and cap off the 2 lines.", what does this mean? Use colors in your explanation.

If necessary, use an extension cord plugged into a known-properly-wired receptacle (one on another circuit is fine) to test against, and, with all of the wires in the receptacle box disconnected and spread, test for which white is grounded and which black is hot (with the switch off).

 

[jute]

Sounds like you've got two circuits on the device. When you tie the two hots together, you've got a line-to-line short.

I didn't tie the (2) lines (black/hots) together...I tied the (2) common white wires together and capped off the 2 (black/hots, one was the 120v feed and one a switch leg).

Plus, when you say "I take off the outlet and put the commons together and cap off the 2 lines.", what does this mean? Use colors in your explanation.

The HO wanted a cover plate there instead of the existing half switched outlet.The switch leg was capped off and the line (black/hot) was also capped off then I connected the (2) common white wires together and on the original outlet I had continuity between the two common screws and the bridge between the line (brass) screws had been removed. This is why I'm confused?? It seems to me that I have the connections the same except the receptacle has been removed??

Thanks for the help...it's wired and working now but will be going back to complete the job today so I will take another look at it and go from there...Thanks again, JB

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The HO wanted a cover plate there instead of the existing half switched outlet. It seems to me that I have the connections the same except the receptacle has been removed??

It does appear you have connected it back correctly, as long as you are sure the whites were both connected on the neutral side of the recep. Perhaps something else was done at the same time somewhere else. OR perhaps the wirenut fell off and is shorting in the box but I bet you checked that.

Anyway, I hope by disconnecting the receptacle you didn't violate 210.52

 

[jute]

It does appear you have connected it back correctly, as long as you are sure the whites were both connected on the neutral side of the recep. Perhaps something else was done at the same time somewhere else. OR perhaps the wirenut fell off and is shorting in the box but I bet you checked that.

I had both nuetral white wires (confimed that they were nuetral) connected on the neutral side of the receptacle and confimed there was continuity between them on the original install and the new install (I cut the wire leaving one end still terminated to the outlet so I can see how it was connected)

Perhaps something else was done at the same time somewhere else. OR perhaps the wirenut fell off and is shorting in the box but I bet you checked that.

I checked the connections on the split outlet and then pulled out (6) outlets on the same circuit in front of it and checked those connections but everything was ok...

Anyway, I hope by disconnecting the receptacle you didn't violate 210.52

I tried to disconnect the receptacle and put on a blank cover plate and the breaker trips so I installed a new split oulet and connected it as it was installed originally. It's working but by removing it AGAIN I would violate 210.52 and that will be the reason for leaving it as it is but I still want to take it back out of the wall and find out why I couldn't remove it and put a blank cvr plate on it in the first place??? Thanks for the reply...JB

 

[George Stolz]

You are confused somewhere. Even to do seeminly simple electrical work you need a better understanding of basic circuitry.

Was that comment really necessary?

For example, You could have a half switched outlet where the white is the hot (NM..to the switch).

I agree with this however, it sounds to me like this is the problem. With continuity between common (presumably this is the neutral) and the "hot" after replacing the receptacle, it sure sounds like a two-wire switchleg got rewired wrong.

I'd be curious to hear if that breaker tripped with the switch (that used to control the receptacle) off.

 

[cschmid]

maybe when the original wires were striped they cut the insulation and when you push all the wires back in the box the insulation opens up and causes the short..with the recepticle it may have the wire in different position so it does not short..just a thought..

 

[jute]

I agree with this however, it sounds to me like this is the problem. With continuity between common (presumably this is the neutral) and the "hot" after replacing the receptacle, it sure sounds like a two-wire switchleg got rewired wrong.

I'm going back there this morning to try and finish up but will take that outlet and switch out and trace the wires back again and see what evil lurks...

I'd be curious to hear if that breaker tripped with the switch (that used to control the receptacle) off.

I did try this and the breaker still trips with the switch in the "off" or "on" position when the outlet is removed...I didn't replace the switch but I did replace the split receptacle and it's working fine... One has constant power and the other is controlled by the switch (both have 120V).. The breaker only trips when I try and remove the receptacle to put on a blank cvr plate... Dennis informed me of 210.52 violation, I didn't think about that (BOO/HISS) so it will stay a split outlet but I still want to find out why I couldn't remove the outlet???

Thanks Again, JB

 

[jute]

maybe when the original wires were striped they cut the insulation and when you push all the wires back in the box the insulation opens up and causes the short..with the recepticle it may have the wire in different position so it does not short..just a thought..

The j-box is very full and you never know but I will take a look at it closer and check for any wires that look like they might be able to short against the box or ??

Thanks to all again for the help/info...Have a great FRIDAY...JB

 

[LarryFine]

. . . I still want to find out why I couldn't remove the outlet???

Just out of curiousity, why do you want it gone?

 

[augie47]

trips ?

trips ?

Jute, we don't happen to be dealing with GFCI breakers do we ?

 

[jute]

Just out of curiousity, why do you want it gone?

The HO wanted it gone because he's putting in a big flatscreen TV and he said it was an eyesore but it looks like he'll have to live with it... JB

 

[jute]

Jute, we don't happen to be dealing with GFCI breakers do we ?

No, it's not a GFCI breaker, it's being fed by a single pole 20A breaker. I was going to go over yesterday morning and take another look at it but I got a call and ended up on another property so won't be going back until next week...JB

 

[LarryFine]

The HO wanted it gone because he's putting in a big flatscreen TV and he said it was an eyesore but it looks like he'll have to live with it... JB

Okay, if even getting rid of a blank plate is better, then just find the other end of each cable run, and terminate them in the other boxes.

Cut the wires short (only after you're sure everything else still works) in the other box, and you can permanently patch over the box in question.

By the way, you should re-arrange the wiring to have the switch operate another receptacle or other lighting outlet.

 

[220/221]

Cut the wires short (only after you're sure everything else still works) in the other box, and you can permanently patch over the box in question.

GAAAH !!

 

[LarryFine]

Cut the wires short (only after you're sure everything else still works) in the other box, and you can permanently patch over the box in question.

GAAAH !!

Calm down, calm down!

I meant that, if you permanently abandon the far ends of cables leading to a box, that box can be demolished. Now, this does not apply to a receptacle installed to satisfy wall-space requirements.

However, if the box that one wants to demolish is so installed, it can be replaced with, for example, a floor receptacle or a higher-up-the-wall one.

 

[220/221]

Heh heh...I do a LOT of rework so Im not a big fan of eliminating ANY electrical. Somebody someday might need it. It makes my day when I find a spare somewhere