Sq D QO 20A Dual Function Breaker

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kerkd32

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Recently Completed the wiring on 2 residential houses, In each house I used the same Sq D 200 Amp Plug on Neutral ready panel. In these panels on the circuits necessary (ex. kitchens and laundry areas) I used the SqD 20 Dual Function(AFCI<GFCI) breakers instead of installing a 20 amp AFCI and a feed thru GFCI. On house Number 1 within the 1st month of the residence living there I had these breakers tripping at random times with no load, eliminated one problem with a faulty old freezer, but now I continue to trip these dual functions but it only happens every 6 days or so. House Number 2 the residence lived there for 4 Months with little issues, occasional breaker tripped but as of the last week they are experiencing these dual functioning breakers tripping every day. For trouble shooting I have checked all my wiring making sure a ground is not against a neutral in a box or having a dead short anywhere, also I have done insulation test on my wiring and it has all checked out good. I have talked with vendors and supply house with little information on what the problem could be, just wondering if anybody else has experienced this issue and what you have found? When the breaker is tripped, the QO dual function breaker always shows a ground fault.
 
Welcome to the forum.

I have no direct experience with Sq D dual function breakers, but I have had direct experience with AFCI breakers nuisance tripping. The manufacturers have flat out admitted that they are forcing the US population to beta test their more expensive, code mandated breakers.

Swap out the DF breakers with a straight GFCI breaker and see if anything trips. If it doesn't then call Sq D and complain.

Good luck and please come back and post updates.
 
Not sure if this is an answer to your problem or not but if there is anyone with a ham radio or walkie-talkies in the area that could be a problem. Check out this video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsILD0Fce1s

You could try this experiment yourself with a walkie-talkie. Just walk into the room where the breaker panel is and key the mic.

I had this exact problem in a condo complex in Jersey City where the security guards kept telling us that ALL the deicing cables did not function and that the circuit breakers had tripped. Sure enough we entered one of the electrical and had the gusrd key the mic and all the GFCI breakers tripped.
 
We're using a lot of DF out of sheer economics , one small tip i'll pass on is, we make our panels up, test our circuitry , then take the hot's off all of them, leaving only lights, and something on a normal ocpd for the trim guys.

This is because we suspect the toolage 'punching' the lifespan out of them.

Hope this helps

~RJ~
 
I was not aware the QO could tell you the reason for trip (Ground fault vs arc fault vs thermal mag trip)?
 
kwired said:
I was not aware the QO could tell you the reason for trip (Ground fault vs arc fault vs thermal mag trip)?
Click to expand...
Got this email recently from our supplier via the Square D rep:

Dear Distributors: It is imperative that all Sales Personnel are aware of this testing capability on ALL our CAFI, PCAFI and Dual Function (DF / PDF) breakers both on Homeline and QO.
We need to know when a customer returns either CAFI/PCAFI or DF/PDF that a customer gives you the reasoning for returning these breakers. Most contractors are replacing these breakers after one
“nuisance trip” without testing the breaker to find out the reasoning for the trip. This is not acceptable.
The contractors I regularly call on are aware of this special test but we are unable to train every contractor; we depend on our Distributor Outside Sales force to help train channel led electrical contractors in your area.
Please help us pass this information along.
Thanks,

Attached was this pdf (I linked to the same document on Home Depots website): http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/43/43a955a6-2154-4899-9aee-a70a4c2308c3.pdf
 
cpinetree said:
Got this email recently from our supplier via the Square D rep:

Dear Distributors: It is imperative that all Sales Personnel are aware of this testing capability on ALL our CAFI, PCAFI and Dual Function (DF / PDF) breakers both on Homeline and QO.
We need to know when a customer returns either CAFI/PCAFI or DF/PDF that a customer gives you the reasoning for returning these breakers. Most contractors are replacing these breakers after one
“nuisance trip” without testing the breaker to find out the reasoning for the trip. This is not acceptable.
The contractors I regularly call on are aware of this special test but we are unable to train every contractor; we depend on our Distributor Outside Sales force to help train channel led electrical contractors in your area.
Please help us pass this information along.
Thanks,

Attached was this pdf (I linked to the same document on Home Depots website): http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/43/43a955a6-2154-4899-9aee-a70a4c2308c3.pdf
Click to expand...
Note, however, that from the description this test appears to be valid only for a breaker which is currently tripping every time it is closed. Some other breakers (notably Schneider AFCI breakers with 30ma GFP rather than GFCI) will instead provide a way of reading out the cause of the most recent trip, even if the breaker is currently holding normally.

The latter is potentially useful for diagnosing an intermittent/occasional trip; the former is not.

It would not help for the "one nuisance trip" scenario mentioned in the bulletin.

Note: I have not tried this, so if the description of the TIMESAVER feature in the manufacturer's promotional literature is wrong, my conclusions are wrong too. :)
 
First I have heard of this feature, anyone know how long they have had it? I think it was Siemens that has the indicator light that lets you know the fault status of the last trip I believe.

Next question is if the fault has been cleared, does it indicate what the last reason for trip was or does it only tell you what any present fault situation actually is? Seems like the literature is leaning toward it only telling what any present fault actually is, so those intermittent faults can still be a headache to even know what you might be looking for.
 
kwired said:
First I have heard of this feature, anyone know how long they have had it? I think it was Siemens that has the indicator light that lets you know the fault status of the last trip I believe.

Next question is if the fault has been cleared, does it indicate what the last reason for trip was or does it only tell you what any present fault situation actually is? Seems like the literature is leaning toward it only telling what any present fault actually is, so those intermittent faults can still be a headache to even know what you might be looking for.
Click to expand...

The ones that indicate the most recent previous failure do not seem to reset that internal memory just from cycling the breaker even if it holds on those cycles. Instead to clear it you have to go through a procedure using, in most cases, the TEST button.
A specific procedure to read out the last failure may well clear that memory.
 
I have given up on Square D products. I used to love them, but the AFCI's just take up too much space in the panel, and the terminals on Square D AFCI's are really awkward. I like the "idiot lights" on the Siemens/Murray AFCI's. At least you know what caused the last trip without any guesswork. I also like that they're the same size as a regular breaker.
 
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