Standards/Practice/Duty

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Johnny821

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Electrician
Hello everyone,

I've been tasked with a matter to determine if someone violated any NEC standards or at least standard practice within our field. To keep this simple and brief, an electrician was called for a furnace not working. It was determined the wiring in the conduit above the furnace supplying it shorted out due to a crack in the furnace allowing significant heat to escape and attack the conduit above. The wires were pulled out and replaced. Days later, same issue; wires again pulled out and replaced. Third time, within the same week, electrician replaces conduit and wire because wire was welded to the conduit inside. Fourth time the place burns down with witnesses reporting seeing and hearing significant arcing in the area of the conduit above the furnace and then a fire started in that area.

My question is was this acceptable to any of you, and assuming absolutely not, what area of the code book describes the violation of standard practice, or at least in general, at which point would most of you have done something different or have not done the job at all? The specifics surrounding the installation itself are not what I'm looking for, that I already know what was and wasn't violated, I'm just looking at the standard of practice and ethics side of this, even if not in the code book.

Thanks
 
I think this will be a legal issue and as such we are not lawyers. If you are asking if I would have done what the electricians did, then absolutely not. After the second time there was obviously something that needed to be done.

It is also possible that the person in charge of the building was trying to get some temp fixes until they could afford to get the furnace fixed...
 
Johnny821 said:
Hello everyone,

I've been tasked with a matter to determine if someone violated any NEC standards or at least standard practice within our field. To keep this simple and brief, an electrician was called for a furnace not working. It was determined the wiring in the conduit above the furnace supplying it shorted out due to a crack in the furnace allowing significant heat to escape and attack the conduit above. The wires were pulled out and replaced. Days later, same issue; wires again pulled out and replaced. Third time, within the same week, electrician replaces conduit and wire because wire was welded to the conduit inside. Fourth time the place burns down with witnesses reporting seeing and hearing significant arcing in the area of the conduit above the furnace and then a fire started in that area.

My question is was this acceptable to any of you, and assuming absolutely not, what area of the code book describes the violation of standard practice, or at least in general, at which point would most of you have done something different or have not done the job at all? The specifics surrounding the installation itself are not what I'm looking for, that I already know what was and wasn't violated, I'm just looking at the standard of practice and ethics side of this, even if not in the code book.

Thanks
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Seems like this would be better asked to a professional in your area rather than on an Internet forum.
I can about guarantee you telling someone “Holts forum said...” won’t win a jury over..
 
What kind of "furnace" are we dealing with, and was it functioning properly?

General forced air types of units typically wouldn't put off that sort of heat unless something was malfunctioning to cause damage to conductors in a raceway above like you mentioned. So more details are needed to even know if codes were met.

Now if the mentioned crack is the real issue - probably should have been addressed early on, probably not by the electrician though.

Time to talk to an attorney maybe.
 
The melted insulation is the result of the problem, not the cause. Was the root cause ever addressed? For all we know, the electrician made the repair having been told the problem was addressed. Not enough info given. The fire marshall/investigator, the electrician's supervisor and lawyers should be involved...
 
Was the installation was done per the NEC? Permits and inspections done?
Those are things we don’t know. This is much more than a code question. You may want a forensic investigation done.
 
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Did the same electrician work on it each time, and if not, was the electrician made aware of the previous problems?
 
I would certainly be more concerned about the problems with the furnace.
It's not impossible, but unlikely that branch circuit wiring in a conduit was the cause of the fire IMHO.
 
petersonra said:
Let me ask you this. If someone asked you what the standard is for such things what standard would you refer them to,?
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Insanity? Aka, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?
But I actually agree. I probably wouldn't say any standard has been violated.


augie47 said:
I would certainly be more concerned about the problems with the furnace.
It's not impossible, but unlikely that branch circuit wiring in a conduit was the cause of the fire IMHO.
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I agree, much more likely the furnace would start the fire than to have wiring in conduit start a fire.

And besides, didn't the breaker ever trip during all these short circuits?
Johnny821 said:
Hello everyone,

I've been tasked with a matter to determine if someone violated any NEC standards or at least standard practice within our field.

Thanks
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No offense, but I'm wondering why you were tasked with this. Sounds more like a job for a forensic engineer. I think it takes a professional license to testify in court about something like this.

Or is this more of a homework assignment than a real life situation?
 
steve66 said:
No offense, but I'm wondering why you were tasked with this. Sounds more like a job for a forensic engineer. I think it takes a professional license to testify in court about something like this.
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I don't know if that a forensic engineer is necessary to determine if there is a standard that should have been followed and wasn't. If it takes a third party to make that determination, chances are that few in the profession are actually following that standard.
 
1) I’d bet real money the origin of the fire was the furnace, not the wiring.
2) I don’t see how a competent, reputable electrician sees a circuit being overheated by a faulty furnace, then simply replaces the damaged wiring without at least raising the issue or even refuse to perform the repair until the source of the problem is rectified. Especially multiple times.
 
If it was hot enough to melt the wire in the conduit, the crack probably widened, and caused the fire, not the electrical. That being said, did the electrician notify the customer there was a problem with the furnace, and the customer failed to take care of that problem? Sounds like the customer just said fix it, I will have someone else fix the furnace problem. If the electrician did not mention it, then there might be some liability there. What kind of furnace was it? If it had a crack that big, there would be a lot of carbon monoxide emitted. Most likely something the lawyers need to hash out. But as far as the NEC is concerned, I don’t think you will find anything.
 
Dennis and Retirede, thank you for your responses; that is exactly the answer I am looking for. Please focus on my question of is this acceptable to any of you? I know exactly where and exactly how the fire started, and I understand that a response(s) on this site doesn't hold up. All I'd like to know is in your personal opinion, would you, as the sole electrician, having knowledge of the malfunctioning furnace, and may or maybe not notifying the building owner of the issue, would you have continued to make the repairs? And just in case I missed it in the NEC, is anyone aware of any standard we as electricians must follow that may apply to this issue, which I believe for many of us would simply be common sense.
 
Johnny821 said:
Dennis and Retirede, thank you for your responses; that is exactly the answer I am looking for. Please focus on my question of is this acceptable to any of you? I know exactly where and exactly how the fire started, and I understand that a response(s) on this site doesn't hold up. All I'd like to know is in your personal opinion, would you, as the sole electrician, having knowledge of the malfunctioning furnace, and may or maybe not notifying the building owner of the issue, would you have continued to make the repairs? And just in case I missed it in the NEC, is anyone aware of any standard we as electricians must follow that may apply to this issue, which I believe for many of us would simply be common sense.
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I don’t think you’ll find anything in the NEC that says “Don’t fix any wiring that is being subject to external conditions that may cause failure.”

Having said that, my point #2 in post 13 is still relevant, IMO.
 
Johnny821 said:
Dennis and Retirede, thank you for your responses; that is exactly the answer I am looking for. Please focus on my question of is this acceptable to any of you? I know exactly where and exactly how the fire started, and I understand that a response(s) on this site doesn't hold up. All I'd like to know is in your personal opinion, would you, as the sole electrician, having knowledge of the malfunctioning furnace, and may or maybe not notifying the building owner of the issue, would you have continued to make the repairs? And just in case I missed it in the NEC, is anyone aware of any standard we as electricians must follow that may apply to this issue, which I believe for many of us would simply be common sense.
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If I was aware the malfunction in the furnace caused the damage I may have made the repair the first time and told them to have the furnace fixed/replaced/whatever it needed. If called back for same issue, I might have either refused to fix it until the cause was fixed, or possibly even rerouted it away from the problem. I know if this were a gas furnace and the local gas company guys happened to see the problem they very likely would have shut the gas off to the place until the problem was resolved.
 
While it seems the op is omitting details much like a lawyer, it appears to be a fishing expedition, and without all the facts, liability cannot be determined, if any.
 
kwired said:
If I was aware the malfunction in the furnace caused the damage I may have made the repair the first time and told them to have the furnace fixed/replaced/whatever it needed. If called back for same issue, I might have either refused to fix it until the cause was fixed ...
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Wonder if you would have been liable from the first fix if something happened.
wiring and energizing something that was known to be damaged and faulty ?
 
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