I have this problem with a residential job.When you are in ths tub with the hot water running you sometimes get a slight tingle. This only happens when the hot water heater elements are actually on. We have bonded the hot water lines, hot water heater and changed both elements in the water heater. Also drive an additional two ground rods. ground tests around 40 ohms now , was over 100. 40 is about as good as you are going to get in my area unless chemical rods are used. We have not bonded the cast drain line in the tub , we are going to do that. This have about stumped me Anyone had this problem ? The tingle is around 15 volts and none of the above work has made any difference in this reading.
Stray voltage?
- Thread starter doyle
- Start date
- Status
ron
Senior Member
- Location
- New York, 40.7514,-73.9925
Re: Stray voltage?
By bonding the drain line, you are not solving the problem. Just a band aid.
The source is someplace. Since it happens with the heating elements on only, then that is the place to keep digging.
By bonding the drain line, you are not solving the problem. Just a band aid.
The source is someplace. Since it happens with the heating elements on only, then that is the place to keep digging.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Stray voltage?
I wouldn't even call it a band aid. I would call it mis-direction. You are trying to give the current an easier way to get to planet Earth. I really has no interest in going there. It's trying to get back to its source. But it is getting there by a path that includes (as both Ron and I are guessing) the water heater's heating elements, the case of the heater, all of the house's equipment grounding conductors, and the grounding electrode system. You need to break that first link ? the short circuit within the water heater.
I wouldn't even call it a band aid. I would call it mis-direction. You are trying to give the current an easier way to get to planet Earth. I really has no interest in going there. It's trying to get back to its source. But it is getting there by a path that includes (as both Ron and I are guessing) the water heater's heating elements, the case of the heater, all of the house's equipment grounding conductors, and the grounding electrode system. You need to break that first link ? the short circuit within the water heater.
ron
Senior Member
- Location
- New York, 40.7514,-73.9925
Re: Stray voltage?
Doyle,
I meant keep looking. Check the controls too.
Doyle,
I meant keep looking. Check the controls too.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Stray voltage?
I'm thinking maybe a lost neutral as even if the heater elements was energizing the water the path would be just to the case of the water heater not down through all the metal piping to run through the tub? What about a lost primary neutral pulling return power through the GE system of this house cast drain included. If this tub was the only path between the water lines and the cast drain piping then it would make sense that a person could get a shock in the tub. If water lines are not continous between another building and or not bonded at this other building this would only raise the voltage that could be imposed on the GE system by a lost primary neutral. If you turn off all 120 volt loads and run just 240 volt loads use an clamp on amp meter on the main service neutral if there is any current on it then this is most suspect. (primary neutral) If there was a lost service neutral (secondary side) it would only be between the meter and transformer but it would cause other problems that would also be evident like lights getting briter/dimmer TV's blowing out Etc...
Hope this make's sense?
I'm thinking maybe a lost neutral as even if the heater elements was energizing the water the path would be just to the case of the water heater not down through all the metal piping to run through the tub? What about a lost primary neutral pulling return power through the GE system of this house cast drain included. If this tub was the only path between the water lines and the cast drain piping then it would make sense that a person could get a shock in the tub. If water lines are not continous between another building and or not bonded at this other building this would only raise the voltage that could be imposed on the GE system by a lost primary neutral. If you turn off all 120 volt loads and run just 240 volt loads use an clamp on amp meter on the main service neutral if there is any current on it then this is most suspect. (primary neutral) If there was a lost service neutral (secondary side) it would only be between the meter and transformer but it would cause other problems that would also be evident like lights getting briter/dimmer TV's blowing out Etc...
Hope this make's sense?
physis
Senior Member
Re: Stray voltage?
If the hot water piping is bonded,.........then why are you measuring voltage?
And against what reference?
Is the building properly grounded, I mean at the panel, is there an MBJ?
I just don't understand a voltage on a grounded conductive pipe. There's something amiss alright.
If the hot water piping is bonded,.........then why are you measuring voltage?
And against what reference?
Is the building properly grounded, I mean at the panel, is there an MBJ?
I just don't understand a voltage on a grounded conductive pipe. There's something amiss alright.
william runkle
Senior Member
- Location
- Michigan
Re: Stray voltage?
Who replaced the elements in the electric water heater? And when the water was replaced in tank was the air purged out before energizing the tank? Also which element is on when the shock in the shower happens? Or are you just turning off the water heater and stopping the shocking? I know this is a lot of questions but to solve this problem we all have to know before we can be sure to pinpoint this problem. And until you have fix this please turn the water heater off while using any water this is a potential death trap, and by not telling you to do this we are all not helping at all.
Who replaced the elements in the electric water heater? And when the water was replaced in tank was the air purged out before energizing the tank? Also which element is on when the shock in the shower happens? Or are you just turning off the water heater and stopping the shocking? I know this is a lot of questions but to solve this problem we all have to know before we can be sure to pinpoint this problem. And until you have fix this please turn the water heater off while using any water this is a potential death trap, and by not telling you to do this we are all not helping at all.
Re: Stray voltage?
Thanks for the interest. I did bond the drain line together with the hot water line and this has made the voltage problem go away. I know this does not get to the root of the problem however. We changed the hot water heater elements. The tank was never emptied . we used the quick replacement method. The voltage was only present when the elements were actually on . Either element produced the same effect. This house is on the end of a utility line, had had some transformer work done recently but the customer claims this problem preceded that work. I am still thinking on it . Have advised the customer to switch the water heater off when in the tub for now.
Thanks for the interest. I did bond the drain line together with the hot water line and this has made the voltage problem go away. I know this does not get to the root of the problem however. We changed the hot water heater elements. The tank was never emptied . we used the quick replacement method. The voltage was only present when the elements were actually on . Either element produced the same effect. This house is on the end of a utility line, had had some transformer work done recently but the customer claims this problem preceded that work. I am still thinking on it . Have advised the customer to switch the water heater off when in the tub for now.
william runkle
Senior Member
- Location
- Michigan
Re: Stray voltage?
Doyle here is another danger you have to have the water heater off any time you use the water here is a scenerio kitchen sink area washing dishes turn on hot water the refrigerator is 2 feet from sink and is grounded but not required to be ground fault circuit and he touches the refrigerator and the water at the same time guess what could happen. As you stated the elements have been changed in quick chage method but you couldn't state the tank was purged of air now you could still have a fault on the top element so the best solution and the safety of homeowner should be the reason you just change out the water heater.
Doyle here is another danger you have to have the water heater off any time you use the water here is a scenerio kitchen sink area washing dishes turn on hot water the refrigerator is 2 feet from sink and is grounded but not required to be ground fault circuit and he touches the refrigerator and the water at the same time guess what could happen. As you stated the elements have been changed in quick chage method but you couldn't state the tank was purged of air now you could still have a fault on the top element so the best solution and the safety of homeowner should be the reason you just change out the water heater.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Stray voltage?
This is a downright dangerous situation, which has to be remedied.
It sounds to me as though you may have a wiring problem other than the elements. Try disconnecting the elements from the circuit and then turning the circuit back on - it may be a nick in a conductor, or some other wiring problem. You need to concentrate on the situation and find the problem, even if it means all new wiring from the breaker to the unit.
This is a downright dangerous situation, which has to be remedied.
It sounds to me as though you may have a wiring problem other than the elements. Try disconnecting the elements from the circuit and then turning the circuit back on - it may be a nick in a conductor, or some other wiring problem. You need to concentrate on the situation and find the problem, even if it means all new wiring from the breaker to the unit.
william runkle
Senior Member
- Location
- Michigan
Re: Stray voltage?
I am afraid Doyle is letting this situation go to far and only masking the situation by bonding the drain pipe the stray voltage hasn't gone away and leaving the customer with this problem doesn't help. To save a life or an accident I would replace the water heater and the conductors supplying it pronto. I have a feeling as a grandparent that it could be my grandchild that gets shocked because of this situation I would be hopping mad. So please if you can not fix right away sub this out I am sure the homeowner would pay to be safe.
I am afraid Doyle is letting this situation go to far and only masking the situation by bonding the drain pipe the stray voltage hasn't gone away and leaving the customer with this problem doesn't help. To save a life or an accident I would replace the water heater and the conductors supplying it pronto. I have a feeling as a grandparent that it could be my grandchild that gets shocked because of this situation I would be hopping mad. So please if you can not fix right away sub this out I am sure the homeowner would pay to be safe.
catchtwentytwo
Senior Member
Re: Stray voltage?
Doyle,
You are probably heading for legal action if someone gets hurt. Up here in Connecticut, you could find yourself in prison if someone gets fatally injured.
See this 2001 IAEI article (at the bottom of the page). While not the same issue it should remind us to take the extra step and err on the side of caution when people are at risk.
Electrical Contractor Sentenced to 5-Year Jail Term for Fatal Fire
Doyle,
You are probably heading for legal action if someone gets hurt. Up here in Connecticut, you could find yourself in prison if someone gets fatally injured.
See this 2001 IAEI article (at the bottom of the page). While not the same issue it should remind us to take the extra step and err on the side of caution when people are at risk.
Electrical Contractor Sentenced to 5-Year Jail Term for Fatal Fire
william runkle
Senior Member
- Location
- Michigan
Re: Stray voltage?
I do not want to sound mean but this is dragging on to long, doyle first post of the problem is on August 15 2005 and he was told he didn't have to bond drain pipe as it is just hiding the problem you still have it. Then September 2 he post again that he still has a problem but bonded drain pipe that was 18 days and haven't taken care of it. Now here is a question what if something happens and legal proceedings begin can this thread and all of our inputs be pulled into this? I don't know but I will state this get it fixed now or get someone who will fix it now.
I do not want to sound mean but this is dragging on to long, doyle first post of the problem is on August 15 2005 and he was told he didn't have to bond drain pipe as it is just hiding the problem you still have it. Then September 2 he post again that he still has a problem but bonded drain pipe that was 18 days and haven't taken care of it. Now here is a question what if something happens and legal proceedings begin can this thread and all of our inputs be pulled into this? I don't know but I will state this get it fixed now or get someone who will fix it now.
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