Stuck between a rock and AFCI's

[ptonsparky]

We are lucky(??) enough that we can design, layout and install, but not engineer, projects in the State. Not that I am going start on any Nuke plant layouts, but one never knows.

 

[kwired]

We are lucky(??) enough that we can design, layout and install, but not engineer, projects in the State. Not that I am going start on any Nuke plant layouts, but one never knows.

For most of projects I do - especially dwellings and agricultural structures I don't see why additional engineering is needed either. Most of the major design issues are very similar from one project to the next. Engineering for any environmental impact could be necessary - but often does not change the electircal design directly. Does effect methods of installing certain things but doesn't change the fact that you were going to install something in the first place, it is more of a structural and mechanical engineering decision of some of those items.

 

[Gac66610]

most of the time, i have no idea on the layout of a house until i walk in, basically its ... what do you want for lighting, where would you like the switches, are there any special receptacles needed, phone, cable, ... and i'll be done in a couple days
then on to the next

one of my builders put a price in for electrical, approx. 3400 sq.ft. i asked about what he figured ... $5600 told him no way :happysad:

just a little update, i'm waiting to talk to GC about AFCI's ... right now he is fighting with POCO, dont want to pour gas on the flames

 

[kwired]

one of my builders put a price in for electrical, approx. 3400 sq.ft. i asked about what he figured ... $5600 told him no way :happysad:

I can make more money by not working. Zero is still more than an negative net profit.:happyyes:

 

[templdl]

I can make more money by not working. Zero is still more than an negative net profit.:happyyes:

I often used the term "I can't afford them as a customer."

 

[Little Bill]

one of my builders put a price in for electrical, approx. 3400 sq.ft. i asked about what he figured ... $5600 told him no way :happysad:

Around here, about double that would be on the low end!:blink:

 

[Gac66610]

well, i had a talk with my GC, after i heard him tell the concrete company he doent need the "city" mix cause he was in the county, and of course they agreed, not like its a safety hazard, just wont last as long IMO

anyway, i told him after he said he didnt want any AFCI's i did some research ( with a lot of help from here:thumbsupThanks again
and told him there was a state wide minimum code that covers countys that have not adopted any, "but there are no inspections out here"
then i told him about electricians that did something wrong and a death occurred because of it, and they are now in prison "well, f Greg i'll come visit" (he was joking) it's how far our GC,EC relationship has evolved (we both laughed)
i explained that the minimum state code was 2006 IBC requiring all 120v, 15 and 20a receptacles in bedrooms only needed to be AFCI protected, "but there are no inspections"
i told him that i realized this but its the "what ifs" that will make me install them, and i told him " I am installing them to the 2006 IBC"
and thats where it stands he said nothing after it and we went back to work
guess we shall see what happens next

 

[jxofaltrds]

Maybe your state is like mine.

In Ohio we have a statewide residential building code. Period. Many areas have no local building department so no permits/inspections are required.

Still the home must meet the current code. 2008 NEC for residential.

 

[petersonra]

My suggestion would be to select the last version of the code w/o AFCIs in them and have the GC state in writing that the install will be IAW that code version.

There are other things in later versions of the code that you can skip on too. Are you going to get sued over them?

What if the county had adopted a version of the code without AFCIs? Would you be negligent in doing an install that was code compliant just because the code did not have AFCIs in them?

Is everyone that installed something per code now liable if there is a fire tracable to a circuit that arguably might have been better protected if it had an AFCI on it? What if it was a circuit that a later version required AFCI protection on but did not at the time of the install?

Would it not be "safer" to install them on all circuits? Are you going to get sued for that?

ETA: I gather from a later comment the state has a minimum code you have to follow if the county has not adopted one. So, my suggestion seems like a no go.

 

[kwired]

My suggestion would be to select the last version of the code w/o AFCIs in them and have the GC state in writing that the install will be IAW that code version.

So that would mean you would be installing to the 1999 NEC? Are you supposed to charge 1999 prices on everything also? Don't bother installing anything that did not exist in 1999 either, it may not be code compliant for 1999.

 

[Gac66610]

My suggestion would be to select the last version of the code w/o AFCIs in them and have the GC state in writing that the install will be IAW that code version. .......

ETA: I gather from a later comment the state has a minimum code you have to follow if the county has not adopted one. So, my suggestion seems like a no go.

yeah 2006 IRC I will be installing AFCI's

So that would mean you would be installing to the 1999 NEC? Are you supposed to charge 1999 prices on everything also? Don't bother installing anything that did not exist in 1999 either, it may not be code compliant for 1999.

sure.. why not only the GC is suppose to make money .... right?

 

[petersonra]

So that would mean you would be installing to the 1999 NEC? Are you supposed to charge 1999 prices on everything also? Don't bother installing anything that did not exist in 1999 either, it may not be code compliant for 1999.

not a pricing issue. if you get a choice as to what code to comply with, you pick something reasonable that you are comfortable with and go with it.

what if the county had selected 1999 as the code they were going to enforce? would you want to spend an extra $100g installing AFCIs?

 

[kwired]

not a pricing issue. if you get a choice as to what code to comply with, you pick something reasonable that you are comfortable with and go with it.

what if the county had selected 1999 as the code they were going to enforce? would you want to spend an extra $100g installing AFCIs?

What if they selected 1899 as the code they were going to enforce?