Stupid question

[olly]

If you have a cold sequenced breaker type. You do still need a main breaker after the meter also right? Because only the utility is to access the cold sequenced disconnect. This is a 320a system.

 

[augie47]

You would still need service disconnecting means that meets Part V of Art 230. It would not necessarily be "a main breaker"

 

[kwired]

The service disconnect can be on the supply side of the meter and be NEC compliant - but most POCO specifications for what they want and how they intend it to be used disqualifies that supply side disconnect from being a NEC compliant service disconnecting means, therefore you still need additional disconnecting means as Augie suggested.

 

[iwire]

Cold sequence metering has been common in this are for a while and we have never installed a second disconnect to do so as far as I know.

 

[kwired]

Cold sequence metering has been common in this are for a while and we have never installed a second disconnect to do so as far as I know.

If the POCO decides they don't want potential customer access to unmetered connections, they usually want a lock or seal on the meter disconnect, also do not want to have fuses in there to potentially need serviced - those two things usually disqualifies the ability to consider it a service disconnecting means.

 

[iwire]

If the POCO decides they don't want potential customer access to unmetered connections, they usually want a lock or seal on the meter disconnect, also do not want to have fuses in there to potentially need serviced - those two things usually disqualifies the ability to consider it a service disconnecting means.

I understand why some areas require it, I am simply pointing out it is not a forgone conclusion that it is required.

The vast majority of the 480Y/277 volt services we install or work on have a service disconnecting means ahead of the metering equipment and the power companies in this area do not block access to the service disconnect. Once in a while they hang a typical seal or pad lock on just the cabinet containing the metering equipment.

 

[meternerd]

I understand why some areas require it, I am simply pointing out it is not a forgone conclusion that it is required.

The vast majority of the 480Y/277 volt services we install or work on have a service disconnecting means ahead of the metering equipment and the power companies in this area do not block access to the service disconnect. Once in a while they hang a typical seal or pad lock on just the cabinet containing the metering equipment.

Interesting....out west, I think we're just the opposite. Metering is ahead of any disconnects unless more than 6 service disconnects (per Code) The reason we don't allow it is that we don't want a customer to have access to unmetered conductors, but also because meters are powered by the line voltages, and shutting off the disconnect ahead of metering would cause the meter to stop transmitting data, causing a "No Report" condition, which requires a visit by the metering dept. Also, even on a disconnected service (we lock the service disconnect off on CT services), we like the meter to stay energized so that we can verify every month (remotely) that there has been no usage.

 

[kwired]

Interesting....out west, I think we're just the opposite. Metering is ahead of any disconnects unless more than 6 service disconnects (per Code) The reason we don't allow it is that we don't want a customer to have access to unmetered conductors, but also because meters are powered by the line voltages, and shutting off the disconnect ahead of metering would cause the meter to stop transmitting data, causing a "No Report" condition, which requires a visit by the metering dept. Also, even on a disconnected service (we lock the service disconnect off on CT services), we like the meter to stay energized so that we can verify every month (remotely) that there has been no usage.

Where I see this is fairly limited. It is usually for 480 volt services with self contained metering. Over 200 amps they usually use CT metering and you don't see these disconnects in those applications.

The arrangement is usually specified by the POCO - they typically want an unfused disconnect ahead of the meter socket. They will put a lock or seal on that disconnect and it is there only for their technicians to disconnect power before removing the meter. Load side of meter still needs a service disconnecting means - usually details of that disconnect are left up to the installer/inspector/NEC.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Where I see this is fairly limited. It is usually for 480 volt services with self contained metering. Over 200 amps they usually use CT metering and you don't see these disconnects in those applications.

The arrangement is usually specified by the POCO - they typically want an unfused disconnect ahead of the meter socket. They will put a lock or seal on that disconnect and it is there only for their technicians to disconnect power before removing the meter. Load side of meter still needs a service disconnecting means - usually details of that disconnect are left up to the installer/inspector/NEC.

The unfused disconnect may be a 110.3(B) issue. As far as I know there are no unfused disconnects suitable for use on circuits where the available fault current exceeds 10,000 amps.

Our utility requires that the cold sequence disconnect have a breaker or fuses and that is is the service disconnect.

 

[kwired]

The unfused disconnect may be a 110.3(B) issue. As far as I know there are no unfused disconnects suitable for use on circuits where the available fault current exceeds 10,000 amps.

Our utility requires that the cold sequence disconnect have a breaker or fuses and that is is the service disconnect.

Understand the concerns.

How often is available fault current above 10k for a 200 amp or less capacity service?

If utility specifies this - it may be considered to be on their side of the service point and the NEC doesn't apply, whether the POCO installs it or not.

Not saying any of that is right or wrong - just some things that may be just the way it is in some places.

Somewhere along the lines both the POCO and the inspector need to agree on something where the POCO specs vs code don't match each other.

We have some POCO around here that make customer provide (typically by their contractor but bottom line is POCO won't install it) underground raceways for service laterals or even medium voltage primary conductors - but that is only for initial install. After that POCO pulls in conductors and continues to maintain and operate it and is considered POCO equipment - same could go for said cold sequence disconnecting means.