sub panel for Hot Tub

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wireman3736

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There's probably been a thread on this before, In a single family house, can you run an 8-3 copper w/g romex to a two position panel then install a 50a 2 pole gfci breaker to feed the hot tub or would the ground be required to be insulated. And if this is allowed then what about using #6 ser aluminum to feed the two pos panel. Every thing I read seems to indicate that the ground has to be insulated but maybe I'm missing something.
 
680.42(c) would allow 8/3 romex , inside the dwelling or the interior of another buliding associated with it, as far as using AL. the grounding conductor has to be copper # 12 or larger.
 
There are several threads on this if you check back. First off, you should check to see that the manufacturer's recommendations do not call for "copper conductors only." Next, if you look at 680.43(E)(3) it indicates that a copper bonding jumper not smaller than #8 solid shall be used. You also have to look at 680.42(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. It is permissable to use 8/3 RX for the interior part of your installation. However, here is the confusing part. A #10 (insulated only by the sheath) is the provided with an 8/3 RX cable assembly. Why you have to change to a #8 solid insulated conductor from the disconnect to the tub is beyond me. But, that's what the code says.
 
goldstar said:
There are several threads on this if you check back. First off, you should check to see that the manufacturer's recommendations do not call for "copper conductors only." Next, if you look at 680.43(E)(3) it indicates that a copper bonding jumper not smaller than #8 solid shall be used. You also have to look at 680.42(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. It is permissable to use 8/3 RX for the interior part of your installation. However, here is the confusing part. A #10 (insulated only by the sheath) is the provided with an 8/3 RX cable assembly. Why you have to change to a #8 solid insulated conductor from the disconnect to the tub is beyond me. But, that's what the code says.
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I'm not seeing where it's required by 680.43(E)(3) to use a #8 Solid conductor from the disconnect to the hot tub. In fact, #8 solid conductors are not permitted to be installed in raceways.
 
I was thinking about the question in the O.P. , and now I have one .

Would this be considered a feeder? if so would it have to be installed according 680.25?

Feeder; All circuit conductors between the service equipment, the source of a seperately dervived system, or other power supply source and the final branch circuit overcurrent device.
 
1st I think I should have said 6-3 w/g, romex, You can't use #8 romex, it's only good for 40 amp, I would definitely use copper to the hot tub, allot of guy's use #6 ser AL to the disconnect from the main panel and I didn't know if the ground in the cable would be considered insulated, I wouldn't think a 2 position panel would be considered a sub panel, it isn't any different then a disconnect switch or pull out.
 
M. D. said:
Would this be considered a feeder? if so would it have to be installed according 680.25?
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IMO, no, because 680.42(C) modifies that section. But, it could be argued it doesn't. :D

infinity said:
I'm not seeing where it's required by 680.43(E)(3) to use a #8 Solid conductor from the disconnect to the hot tub.
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I think you misunderstood what Phil was getting at. In the equipotential area of the hot tub, all metallic objects (including the electrical ones) are required to be bonded together by one of the methods, the third being "The provisions of a copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid." So the EGC running under the tub would need to be an 8 if it were also serving the equipotential bonding of this section.

An EGC and a equipotential bonding jumper could both be attached to the equipment.

In fact, looking at this again has got me thinking: The EGC of a hydromassage bathtub cord in editions prior to the 2005, should have been an #8. The receptacle was electrical equipment. It should have been connected to the pump seperately with a #8. Or perhaps Charlie's Rule is tricking me. :)
infinity said:
In fact, #8 solid conductors are not permitted to be installed in raceways.
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Code reference?
 
Most hot tubs I have wired are sold as a listed package with all internal parts already bonded as this one is, I understand the bonding issue. I'm questioning if a cable with a ground although it's not insulated is acceptable as long as it's in a cable assembly, I think I have answered my question, since it is in a single family dwelling I think it is acceptable. What I haven't answered is if I feed from the main panel from a 50 amp breaker or fuse and then install a 2 position panel for the tub disconnect with a 50 amp gfci does the feed require an insulated grounding conductor, It doesn't say anything about a grounding conductor in a cable for a feeder being allowed, Normally I could install a gfci in the main panel and there wouldn't be a question and just install an unfused disconnect for the tub, I could run cable with a ground without it being individually insulated as long as its in a cable and considered a branch circuit. also it wouldn't be required to be copper between the main panel and the disconnect. There are instances when it may come out of an old panel that you may not be able to get a gfci breaker for such as the old pushmattic or a fuse panel. Maybe I should just install a 2 pos panel next to the main panel with the gfci breaker and then run a branch circuit from there to a disconnect for the tub. Every time I hook up a hot tub or swimming pool it seems like I have alot of questins as I don't do that many. Maybe I'm just getting older and I leave a little of my memory on each job.:)
 
georgestolz said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinity
In fact, #8 solid conductors are not permitted to be installed in raceways.

Code reference?
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310.3 Stranded Conductors.
Where installed in raceways, conductors of size 8 AWG and larger shall be stranded.
 
jwelectric said:
310.3 Stranded Conductors.
Where installed in raceways, conductors of size 8 AWG and larger shall be stranded.
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310.3 Exception
As permitted or required elsewhere in this code.

680.27 (2)
Where ridged nonmetallic conduit or liquid tight flexible nonmetallic conduit is used, an 8AWG insulated solid or stranded copper bonding jumper shall be installed in the conduit.:p
 
M. D. said:
Is this a feeder or what????
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I figured out about a Branch circuit I believe, the question now is a feeder, I don't see an exception for using anything other then an insulated grounding conductor for a feeder, I was looking to use a cable with a ground without it being individual insulated other then just the sheath of the cable such as romex or ser cable. I think I could use aluminum but I think now that it would have to be in installed in a conduit and cable can not be used unless I'm missing an exception. Also I believe if I installed a gfci breaker at the tub to also use as a disconnect that it would be considered a sub panel because it's an ocpd.
 
wireman I don't see how you can run AL. cable assembly I have never seen one with a copper equipment grounding conductor. 680.42 (2) (c) is clear on that.

If this is a feeder, and it sure looks like one going by the definition , then it will be a method described in 680.25
 
M. D. said:
wireman I don't see how you can run AL. cable assembly I have never seen one with a copper equipment grounding conductor. 680.42 (2) (c) is clear on that.

If this is a feeder, and it sure looks like one going by the definition , then it will be a method described in 680.25
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I don't see nothing about the grounding conductor for a feeder in 680.25 having to be copper, only the branch circuit feeding the actual equipment requires #12 copper minimum , In the hand book the informational wording says that the grounding conductors can be copper or aluminum.
 
M. D. said:
Unless George is right ,....
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I wouldn't bank on it.

It just depends on how you look at it, and the particulars. If the subpanel is on the side of the house, and NM runs to that, it could be argued that the feeder falls under 680.42(C).

Then again, it could be argued that the language of 680.42 does not allow 680.42(C) to override Part II. (A) and (B) can override Part II, but (C) is not mentioned.

I simply don't know. :)
 
Can anyone explain the #8 and what the intent was ? If you are permitted to run a manufactured cable like 6/3 RX (interior, which has a #10 as part of its cable assembly) to the disconnect what is the reasoning behind the #8 (other than "that's what it says in the code" ).
 
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goldstar said:
Can anyone explain the #8 and what the intent was ? If you are permitted to run a manufactured cable like 6/3 RX (interior, which has a #10 as part of its cable assembly) to the disconnect what is the reasoning behind the #8 (other than "that's what it says in the code" ).
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The #8 is required for bonding to keep everything at the same potential, it has nothing to do with the equipment grounding conductor that runs back to the panel,
 
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