Sub panel grounding issues

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wolfgame30

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Bruceton Mills, WV
Hi Folks thank you in advance for your help. I am selling my house in WV. The inspector says that my sub panel neutral and ground wires need to be separated. My electrician I had doing work on other issues with my house says that, since my sub panel is older (i imagine it was installed in mid 1990's), that it is properly functioning and not damaged, that I did not upgrade or change any service with it, it is grandfathered into older code rules which do NOT require the ground and neutrals to be separated. that my panel does not have room for a separate bus anyway.

my question is who is right and If my electrician is correct that I am grandfathered in, could someone point me to specific wording so that I can show the inspector he is incorrect. The bank wont sign off until this is addressed (IE I cant sell the house to the buyer) until this is addressed. They are looking into this as well, but Id love to be able to help them along.. this is taking them forever.. and my bet is these crooks might tell me I have to get it fixed when I may not have to.
 
I am going to allow this thread up to the point of telling the OP how to do any work on his installation.

That being said.... OP, where is the subpanel located?
 
ActionDave said:
The answer to this is the key to it all. Anybody wanna bet on the electrician or the inspector being right on this? I'm going with the electrician on this one.
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Before I state my thoughts, I need to know what kind of inspector, Electrical Inspector (official) or Home Inspector?
 
ActionDave said:
I'm going with the electrician on this one.
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:happyyes:

wolfgame30 said:
Hi Folks thank you in advance for your help. I am selling my house in WV. The inspector says that my sub panel neutral and ground wires need to be separated. My electrician I had doing work on other issues with my house says that, since my sub panel is older (i imagine it was installed in mid 1990's), that it is properly functioning and not damaged, that I did not upgrade or change any service with it, it is grandfathered into older code rules which do NOT require the ground and neutrals to be separated. that my panel does not have room for a separate bus anyway.

my question is who is right and If my electrician is correct that I am grandfathered in, could someone point me to specific wording so that I can show the inspector he is incorrect. The bank wont sign off until this is addressed (IE I cant sell the house to the buyer) until this is addressed. They are looking into this as well, but Id love to be able to help them along.. this is taking them forever.. and my bet is these crooks might tell me I have to get it fixed when I may not have to.
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As Little Bill asked we need to know where the subpanel is located.

If it is in a separate structure, and if it was installed in the 1990s, then the inspector is wrong-
the NEC didn't require this until the 2008 edition.....

Tell your electrician to show him this listed below section 250.32(B) of the 2014 NEC:

Exception No.1-

"For installations made in compliance with previous editions of this code that permitted such connections,the grounded conductor shall be permitted to serve as the ground fault return path if all of the following requirements continue to be met":

(1)An equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure.

(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system of each building or structure involved.........

If the subpanel is located in the same building, it must have an egc- it has always been required for that circumstance FWIU.
 
Since when was it ever allowed to land ECG's & neutrals together in anything other then the main service, & when a 3-wire feed was allowed to a outbuilding?
 
Even if the panel is located in a structure that falls under those guidelines, he's selling the house. He could prove the electrician is right perhaps based on those guidelines.

However the buyers could have it stuck in their head that they want it done regardless of what the code says. Seen this many times. Send the buyers agent copy of the code and the buyers still want it done regardless.

Then its up to him if he lets them walk or addresses their concern. Not sure where he's from but in our area its a sellers market, most houses sell the day they are listed on the market.
 
norcal said:
Since when was it ever allowed to land ECG's & neutrals together in anything other then the main service, & when a 3-wire feed was allowed to a outbuilding?
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It was either the 2005 or 2008 that changed the allowance for 3-wire to an outbuilding. It was allowed before then but there were requirements to follow even then.
 
Since the OP makes no mention of an outbuilding, I will assume none, so any sub panel in the home requires separate neutral and ground. You would have to go back many revisions to find the requirement to be any different (probably about the time the ground pin appeared on receptacles). Perhaps one of our more learned members can identify exactly when. Electricians working today sometimes try to apply the 'second building' exception.
 
Little Bill said:
Ok, I get a feeling the inspector is correct. Now waiting on the OP to come back to see what I win!
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Must of been before my time. 250.32 (B) exception #1 would lead me to believe it must of been allowed some time ago.

Also couldn't count on all my fingers and toes how many old houses I've seen with 3wire sub-panels. Either it had to have been code or I've just ran into every moonlighters side job, both are definitely possible. I started in this trade in 1997 though.
 
pachome said:
Must of been before my time. 250.32 (B) exception #1 would lead me to believe it must of been allowed some time ago.

Also couldn't count on all my fingers and toes how many old houses I've seen with 3wire sub-panels. Either it had to have been code or I've just ran into every moonlighters side job, both are definitely possible. I started in this trade in 1997 though.
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See post #10
 
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