sub panel information

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soapman

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When installing a sub panel 3/0 system,is it required to isolate the neutral bar
from the ground bar and then use the ground screw to bond the ground
bar to the panel inclosure, or not isolate the two bars and bond it to the enclosure with the bond screw?
 
sub panel information

Through the ground screw away. If you use a listed ground bar it will be bonded to the panel enclosure when you install it.

Yes isolate the neutral from the ground.
 
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Through the ground screw away.
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Not always, if the panel comes with two isolated bars one on each side of the panel with a buss that runs between them, and if you take out the buss that connects the two and use one for your equipment grounding conductors and one for your grounded conductors, then the green ground screw can be used to bond the panel to the equipment grounding bar.

I have seen this set up quite a bit.

Chris
 
sub panel information

Raider1

I have also seen this done. The panel is provided with 2 neutral bars bonded by way of a jumper to provide additional means for connecting branch circuit grounded conductors. This provides a means for the installer not to place 2
grounded conductors under 1 screw in violation of NEC.

The panel is listed for the purpose. To remove the bonding jumper and use one of the bars as a ground bar rather than a neutral violates the listing.

Electricians doing this should be ready to accept the results should there be a problem ,and inspectors should not accept the installation.

As always this is IMO
 
The panel is listed for the purpose. To remove the bonding jumper and use one of the bars as a ground bar rather than a neutral violates the listing.
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Please provide the listing that says that it can't be used as a grounding bar.

Here is a quote from the installation instructions for a GE PowerMark Gold Load Center.

"The neutral crossbar may be removed to provide optional neutral and ground wiring as follows:"

It goes on to show a table that allows the terminals on the right or left side of the panel can be used for neutral or ground.

Chris
 
james wuebker said:
It could make the panel confusing to some.
Jim
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That seems like the biggest issue. Someone will eventually land some neutrals on the ground bus. IMO the $5 ground bar kit is a better job but I agree with Raider that it can be done without violating the listing. We occasionally use GE panelboards and I've noticed the note he mentioned.
 
infinity said:
That seems like the biggest issue. Someone will eventually land some neutrals on the ground bus. IMO the $5 ground bar kit is a better job but I agree with Raider that it can be done without violating the listing. We occasionally use GE panelboards and I've noticed the note he mentioned.
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I agree with you as long as things are labeled inside.
Jim
 
Good info. I never knew you could remove the jumper neutral bar and still have UL listing.

Could someone save me the trouble and give me the NEC section that prohibits placing 2 grounded conductors under 1 screw?

This provides a means for the installer not to place 2
grounded conductors under 1 screw in violation of NEC.
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Thanks,
Lou
 
Could someone save me the trouble and give me the NEC section that prohibits placing 2 grounded conductors under 1 screw?
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Take a look at 408.41.

408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.

Chris
 
sub panel information

hardworkingstiff said:
Good info. I never knew you could remove the jumper neutral bar and still have UL listing.

Could someone save me the trouble and give me the NEC section that prohibits placing 2 grounded conductors under 1 screw?



Thanks,
Lou
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408.41 Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal thats is not also used for another conductor.

romeo
 
sub panel information

raider1 said:
Please provide the listing that says that it can't be used as a grounding bar.

Here is a quote from the installation instructions for a GE PowerMark Gold Load Center.

"The neutral crossbar may be removed to provide optional neutral and ground wiring as follows:"

It goes on to show a table that allows the terminals on the right or left side of the panel can be used for neutral or ground.

Chris
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Thanks for that information. I haven't worked with the tools for a long time so i never saw that in a Load Center. You are correct if it is listed by the manufacturer it is ok to do. I stand corrected.
 
I've done the same thing before on a Siemens panel.
Siemens makes a replacement jumper that's made out of plastic. You have to use this plastic jumper or else violate listing.
steve
 
I agree with the guy that said you would void the UL listing of the equipment if you modify it. Except for the fact that the manufacturer included instructions to remove the bar connecting the two sides so, that would make it okay.
There was a big kick on the UL thing about ten years ago. People used to make ther own panelboards without the required testing of the equipment.
i think Home Depot used to sell receptacles and switches with no UL sticker here locally until the inspections department caught wind of it and made them stop.
UFGS, NEMA, ANSI and NFPA all require UL or similar testing.
 
Paul B said:
I would like to see that section also.
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I got tagged on a inspection because I removed the aluminum jumper between the two grounding bars in a Siemens (200A residential) panel, in order to use one for the neutrals, and bond the other and use it for the grounds.
That's allowed, only you have to replace the metal jumper with a piece of plastic.
I didn't know that such a part (plastic jumper..eerrr...support bar) even existed. I know now. It's there in the fine print.
I can't see that it performs any function, other than to give Siemens another part to sell.
Just a thought.
steve
 
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