Subpanel safety theory

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don_resqcapt19

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Illinois
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retired electrician
Larry,
I tend to classify troubleshooting as separate category from work. We have to troubleshoot hot most of the time,...
Yes, most troubleshooting must be done hot and is permitted, but only if you have the correct PPE.
... but we do not work hot except under very special conditions. In my facility you are not allowed to work hot without a special permit. It is not issued to just anyone who asks for one. In the last 3 years we have issued 2 permits for hot work.
That is what the rules require, and the only time that permit should be issued is if shutting down the equipment would result in more danger.
Don
 

coulter

Senior Member
don_resqcapt19 said:
Unless you are self employeed the agency is OSHA.

You're right. Inexplicably, I had thought residential was exempt. But after an hour of pawing through 1910.3xx I came to the conclusion that per OSHA, it is only safe to not use PPE if you are a DIY - or, as you said, self-employed.;)

carl
 

don_resqcapt19

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retired electrician
George,
What about the line side terminals? You never work in the panel after the service is energized?
Don
 

George Stolz

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Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
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Don, around here we install a metermain outside, and a feeder to an interior MLO panelboard. So I can shut off the breaker at the metermain and the line side of the panel is not energized. I can even lock it out, if so inclined. The metermain doors can be padlocked shut.
 

George Stolz

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I didn't directly answer your question. I sense an inquisition on it's way, but I am not going to be a hypocrite, so I'll answer you directly, you deserve a straight answer.
don_resqcapt19 said:
You never work in the panel after the service is energized?
I have opened and tested for voltages inside live services without the appropriate PPE. I understand it is dangerous, and that I should not be proud of doing so. I am not proud of it.

I try not to take unreasonable risks. Until I joined this forum, I had little clue how restrictive the OSHA regulations are. I also know what kind of reception I would get on the job, or from the office, if I refused to continue a seemingly low-risk procedure without being supplied the appropriate PPE.

I don't have a Sunday-School answer for this predicament. I think a discussion on working OSHA reg's into backwoods environments effectively would benefit me (and possibly the entire forum) greatly. :)
 

dlhoule

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Location
Michigan
I don't have a Sunday-School answer for this predicament. I think a discussion on working OSHA reg's into backwoods environments effectively would benefit me (and possibly the entire forum) greatly

Can we include NFPA 101 also. I rather doubt that our discussion will accomplish much, but I am all for it.:(
 

petersonra

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Location
Northern illinois
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engineer
I suspect few employers want anyone to be hurt.

The problem is that many plants have insane "safety" requirements that do little to enhance safety but cost a lot.

I know of a plant where the safety department decided the whole plant including office workers should wear steel toed shoes because an employee got his foot run over by a fork lift. Something like $100,000 a year is now budgeted for shoes, most of them for people who never get within 100 yards of a forklift in the first place.

I am not even sure that wearing steel toed shoes would have reduced or eliminated the injury.

One place I worked at came up with a clever idea to reduce the need for safety glasses. They installed 8 foot high partitions (actually 4X8 sheets of OSB) along some aisleways where chips sometimes flew out of machines into the aisleway. The partitions completely eliminated the need to wear safety glasses in the aisleway. I was never sure it met building code (I asked and was assured it did), but it did solve a safety issue in a cost effective way.
 

dlhoule

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
I am not even sure that wearing steel toed shoes would have reduced or eliminated the injury.

These shoes certainly have their place, but have you ever tried to remove a steel toed safety shoe with the steel cutting into the toes .

I strongly recommend using safe work practices, including all the different types of PPE when called for.
 

realolman

Senior Member
georgestolz said:
Don, around here we install a metermain outside, and a feeder to an interior MLO panelboard. So I can shut off the breaker at the metermain and the line side of the panel is not energized. I can even lock it out, if so inclined. The metermain doors can be padlocked shut.

That brings up a sort of unrelated question that I have had.

Does turning off a breaker and locking the door constitute locking it out?

For example turning off a breaker in a Hoffman type enclosure and locking the latch on the door... or does it have to be something directly on the breaker?
 

dlhoule

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Location
Michigan
realolman said:
That brings up a sort of unrelated question that I have had.

Does turning off a breaker and locking the door constitute locking it out?

For example turning off a breaker in a Hoffman type enclosure and locking the latch on the door... or does it have to be something directly on the breaker?

IMO yes. I have on occassion pulled the fuses for a motor in a control panel and locked the door. This enabled them to run other portions of the machine while we worked on coupling for motor. This is something decided on a case by case as far as I am concerned. You need to look at the overall picture.
 

infinity

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New Jersey
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Does turning off a breaker and locking the door constitute locking it out?


I would say no. If I recall correctly, OSHA rules require that a lock be installed on the CB. 422.31(B) requires provisions for a lock. This means that Joe repairman can install his own lock. The panel cover lock could not be used as part of this requirement.
 

winnie

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Location
Springfield, MA, USA
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Electric motor research
Having not read the OSHA regs, I have a question: just what defines 'working hot'. By the most broad definition, _everyone_ 'works hot'. When was the last time that you switched off a breaker before plugging something in :) I certainly don't expect that PPE is required prior to turning on a light switch. Yet there is a _very_ _very_small risk of shock or arc-flash from either of these operations.

One of the points raised in this discussion is that it really is not very practicable to use 'proper' PPE all the time. But the solution to this can go in two directions. 1) Simply not use the PPE and accept the increased risk, or 2) start designing equipment so that the risk presented by the equipment is much lower, such that appropriate PPE is less expensive/more comfortable/more convenient.

The example given above of a panelboard with its main breaker 'off' is a perfect situation to examine. Clearly, even with the main breaker off there are energized conductors in the panel. But IMHO the presence of energized conductors is not enough to say 'this is hot work'. One would need to additionally examine if the conductors are protected from accidental contact or not.

IMHO if, in a given panel, the feeder conductors are as protected from accidental contact as the energized metal in a receptacle, then working in such a panel with its main breaker off is _not_ working hot.

On the other hand, if there is significant exposure of energized conductor, then working in such a panel, even with the main breaker off, would be working hot.

Taking this to the extreme, if the panel is a 'live front' switchboard with exposed blade switches and wires, then _normal_ use of the panel is IMHO hot work that should require PPE.

Going to the other extreme, it seems clear to me that a panel could be designed with protected bus stabs, finger safe breaker terminations, etc, such that one could change breakers, install new circuits, etc., and _never_ require more PPE than safety glasses. I know of no panel that would meet such a standard, but I see no reason that this would be impossible. Such a panel might be more trouble/expense than benefit, and to answer that question would require lots of research...but small changes, eg. finger guarding at terminals, or internal cover plates that guard the bus but permit access to other parts of the panel, could reduce the need for PPE without being very expensive.

Please note: I am not making an interpretation of what the OSHA rules _say_, I am stating what I believe would be an ideal case, and suggesting that appropriate protection be considered for equipment at the design/installation stages specifically to reduce the need for PPE during later work.

-Jon
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
FWIW OHSA speaks of "exposed live parts"

IMO a junction box full of live insulated conductors is not "exposed live parts"

On the other hand a main breaker panel even with the main breaker open has "exposed live parts" at the line side terminals.

Now this is a shame as in Canada this same main breaker panel would have a line side shield that would keep any live parts covered.

Here is where code (Canadian Code) influenced the design of a equipment so that it is safer to work on and PPE would not normally be necessary.
 

dlhoule

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
Here is where code (Canadian Code) influenced the design of a equipment so that it is safer to work on and PPE would not normally be necessary.
:cool:

IMO you still need the PPE until such time as you have confirmed all power has actually been removed. I have seen both disconnects and breakers fail to open all the legs of a system.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Illinois
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retired electrician
Larry,
IMO you still need the PPE until such time as you have confirmed all power has actually been removed. I have seen both disconnects and breakers fail to open all the legs of a system.
That is correct.
Don
 
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