Subpanel upgrade: Use a gutter or not?

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TOOL_5150

TOOL_5150

Senior Member
Location
bay area, ca
Hi,

In regards to replacing a 24ckt 100A subpanel with a 40ckt 100A subpanel.
I have talked to a few other electricians and have found that they all have very strong opinons about using a gutter with a few 2" nipples down to a subpanel. Some guys prefer to pull out all the NM and route it to a newly installed gutter and then connect stranded wire to go down through a 2" nipple to the new subpanel, and some prefer to just bring in all the old Romex's into the top of the new panel. I rather use the gutter, as it makes the new subpanel look neater. The question is: I cant find it in the code if it is legal to strip back the feeder sheath, terminate it to the back of the gutter using a NM clamp and bring the conductors down the middle 2" nipple. I have done it this way a few times and have passed - just wanted to know what you guys thought.

~TOOL_5150
 
It is legal to do what you say but why would you use a gutter if the cables are long enough? I would just bring the cables back into the panel without a gutter unless the wires are not long enough.
 
Bob, the point I was trying to make is that all the NM cable going into a gutter is not any neater than the NM going into a panel and it cost more.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Bob, the point I was trying to make is that all the NM cable going into a gutter is not any neater
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Dennis, the point I was trying to make is that is entirely a personal opinion.:)

IMO the gutter will look nicer but I am more likely to run the cables right into the panel anyway for the cost issues.
 
That is not a common method here unless you can convince the customer to pay for it. It's true that modern panelboards are much larger than ones made 30 or more years ago so most of the cables will be too short to reach the new breakers. That's what wirenuts are for. ;)

Cutler Hammer makes a residential panelboard with a terminal block installed at the top for that very situation, but I couldn't for the life of me find a link to it on CH's website.
 
Lets say cost is not the issue for this job. Im figuring the additional cost for the gutter and nipples to be an additional $40 so it is not a big deal. I prefer to not have wirenuts in upgraded 'new' panels that I do, even that I know that I alwas have the option in a pinch. I would rather have the 'mess' of [properly labeled] romex's terminate in a gutter along with all the grounds on a bussbar and bring down 1 ground and the grounded and ungrounded conductors. The new panel for this job is quite a bit bigger then the one I am replacing so I am a little concerned about the wires not reaching. The main question I have: I cant find it in the code if it is legal to strip back the feeder sheath, terminate it to the back of the gutter using a NM clamp and bring the conductors down the middle 2" nipple.

Thanks for all your replies guys,

~Matt
 
peter d said:
Cutler Hammer makes a residential panelboard with a terminal block installed at the top for that very situation, but I couldn't for the life of me find a link to it on CH's website.
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I saw one of those at my supply house. The blocks are enough for 10 circuits, but they hog up a bunch of knock outs in the top of the panel. You don't even want to know the price! YIKES!
 
TOOL_5150 said:
The main question I have: I cant find it in the code if it is legal to strip back the feeder sheath, terminate it to the back of the gutter using a NM clamp and bring the conductors down the middle 2" nipple.

~Matt
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There is no problem doing that. I believe Iwire posted that answer back at post 3 or so. Just make sure the nipples are shorter than 24" or you must derate.
 
I know I've done into the thousands of service upgrades, and more panel changes than that. Only in a very few instances have I found the use of a gutter to be necessary. You can generally always bring the cables right back into the new panel. From time to time, the panel has to be shifted left or right a bit to comply with modern working space requirements. Often, a couple 4 squares or 4-11's do the trick in that case. I've only found the gutter to be more necessary when one panel is getting replaced with more than one panel. Obviously, do whatever pleases you most, but more often than not it's simply not something that's necessary to consider. In leiu of a gutter, you may condsider mounting some barrier strip inside the top of the new panel to make the splices on. That makes for a pretty slick install.
 
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infinity said:
You're a lot older than I thought.:rolleyes:
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Not really. Just done a lot of that type of work, is all. Much of it was POCO mandated, so that sorta tips the scale my way. Did a couple hundred in a government housing project in one foul swoop once upon a time.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I will take a very close look at everything before I start the project, and have the materials to do it either way on hand. Would you like to see before and after pics? I am probably going to do this in 2 or 3 weeks. Its been put off for a while because there is a server room being fed from this panel and I need to make sure the UPS batteries test OK before I shut the main off.

~Matt
 
TOOL_5150 said:
The main question I have: I cant find it in the code if it is legal to strip back the feeder sheath, terminate it to the back of the gutter using a NM clamp and bring the conductors down the middle 2" nipple.


~Matt
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You'll only find what you are required to do, and what you're prohibited from doing, all else is fair game IMO. Not to mention what you describe is a fairly standard practice. Including just using the old panel as a J-box - gutting it and screwing it shut, and installing a nipple to your new panel right next to/above/under it, or piping it to somewhere else more preferable.
 
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