SubPanels

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Silky1

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Ohio
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Electrician
Hello, My question is I understand that a sub panel cannot be installed within a cloths closet in general. Here is the issue the dwellings are condos that were built in the 1970’s and have aluminum branch circuits with a Federal Pacific sub panel in the kitchen and everything is in conduit. On the back side of the kitchen wall is a cloth closet where we could install the new sub panel of course the spacing would be compromised along with being in a closet. With it being a sub panel if any work needs to be performed (voltage readings excluded) within this panel it can be de-energized. Bottom line is the residence of these units are senior citizens with fixed incomes and to relocate the new sub panel would include removing drywall which is limited to walls only, ceiling is concrete. Of course all of the proper grounding would comply (separate neutrals and grounds, grounding bushings etc) so when does it become feasible to stretch the code and stay within the customers budget. I feel that the Federal Pacific sub panel in the kitchen under and over kitchen cabinets are more hazardous then a new panel in a closet. In closing we all want to be professionals at our craft but do we also have to be concerned with the customer. Thank You for any feedback
 
There are no exceptions in the Code for budget limitations or inconvenience, that I am aware of.

(For the hair-splitters, yes, I’m aware of the exception to adding a CEE where demolition of concrete foundations would be necessary 😳😂)
 
Unfortunately there is seldom an easy answer in these situations especially when liability issues are involved.
I can spend $1,500 and make this a lot safer or I can spend $5,000 and make it safer and Code compliant.

We had a similar thread where a service ran the full length of a house and was above a hard ceiling. To accommodate an added HVAC load an outside service panel was added and the OCP would be added to the existing 3 wire feeder but the Code calls for 4 wire feeders so a $2,500 job ended up at $7,500. The homeowner cancelled the project leaving the existing cable unprotected.
It's especially "stickey" with folks on Social Security
 
And therein lies the problem with bureaucracy, it’s inflexibility and detachment from reality.

As the regulations become more and more, and the agencies less and less able to keep up with it all, or even find enforcers to employ, more and more people just ignore it. 👍
 
I'm doing work in a condo right now which is in a a building that used to be offices, converted I think in 2007

Practically speaking, the panel is in the master closet (clothes closet)

Technically, it's not (I guess)

The panel is surface mounted. Someone built a false wall and put a full-size door in front of the panel. Basically, they built a closet that's only 1 inch deep.

So technically the panel is not inside the master closet, it's inside this other closet which happens to be inside the master closet.

Apparently it passed inspection.
It's something to consider and you could always run it by your AHJ
 
"HABITABLE SPACE. A space in a building for living, sleeping, eating or cooking. Bathrooms, toilet rooms, closets, halls, storage or utility spaces and similar areas are not considered habitable spaces."

So, if a panel may be in an uninhabitable space (closet, utility space), there are no minimum dimensions.
 
James L said:
I'm doing work in a condo right now which is in a a building that used to be offices, converted I think in 2007

Practically speaking, the panel is in the master closet (clothes closet)

Technically, it's not (I guess)

The panel is surface mounted. Someone built a false wall and put a full-size door in front of the panel. Basically, they built a closet that's only 1 inch deep.

So technically the panel is not inside the master closet, it's inside this other closet which happens to be inside the master closet.

Apparently it passed inspection.
It's something to consider and you could always run it by your AHJ
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Put a wide door in to accommodate width requirements for panel?
 
augie47 said:
Unfortunately there is seldom an easy answer in these situations especially when liability issues are involved.
I can spend $1,500 and make this a lot safer or I can spend $5,000 and make it safer and Code compliant.

We had a similar thread where a service ran the full length of a house and was above a hard ceiling. To accommodate an added HVAC load an outside service panel was added and the OCP would be added to the existing 3 wire feeder but the Code calls for 4 wire feeders so a $2,500 job ended up at $7,500. The homeowner cancelled the project leaving the existing cable unprotected.
It's especially "stickey" with folks on Social Security
Click to expand...
Are they not all
tortuga said:
Why not just change out the panel in the kitchen?
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sounds like over countertop so you don’t have your clearance
 
How big is the closet? Can they give up the closet and call it an electrical room?

Or could you pipe out of the closet and come out the side of the closet into the back of a panel
 
Silky1 said:
Hello, My question is I understand that a sub panel cannot be installed within a cloths closet in general. Here is the issue the dwellings are condos that were built in the 1970’s and have aluminum branch circuits with a Federal Pacific sub panel in the kitchen and everything is in conduit. On the back side of the kitchen wall is a cloth closet where we could install the new sub panel of course the spacing would be compromised along with being in a closet. With it being a sub panel if any work needs to be performed (voltage readings excluded) within this panel it can be de-energized. Bottom line is the residence of these units are senior citizens with fixed incomes and to relocate the new sub panel would include removing drywall which is limited to walls only, ceiling is concrete. Of course all of the proper grounding would comply (separate neutrals and grounds, grounding bushings etc) so when does it become feasible to stretch the code and stay within the customers budget. I feel that the Federal Pacific sub panel in the kitchen under and over kitchen cabinets are more hazardous then a new panel in a closet. In closing we all want to be professionals at our craft but do we also have to be concerned with the customer. Thank You for any feedback
Click to expand...
If this is a typical small closet jut convert it to a mechanical closet. I was in a new condo recently and the electric panel was in a closet just inside the front door. The floor plan listed it as mechanical room.
 
Greg1707 said:
If this is a typical small closet jut convert it to a mechanical closet. I was in a new condo recently and the electric panel was in a closet just inside the front door. The floor plan listed it as mechanical room.
Click to expand...
Yes once inhabited you can't control what a person puts into a space that may create a technical code violation. Op, Removal of all indications that would point to a cloths closet even suggesting adding another closet would allow this use of a "mechanical room" from the closet.
 
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