Suitable only for

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ptonsparky

ptonsparky

Tom
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
Bidding a project that will require 5 pump panels. One of the quotes came back with it stating "Type 3R suitable for use only as Service Equipment". These will have SC protection ahead of them.

Usually I see "Suitable for use as Service Equipment" on the enclosure door but I do not normally install SQ D.

They also stated their PPs were intended for pumping installations. How many of you only install them for pumps?
 
ptonsparky said:
Bidding a project that will require 5 pump panels. One of the quotes came back with it stating "Type 3R suitable for use only as Service Equipment". These will have SC protection ahead of them.

Usually I see "Suitable for use as Service Equipment" on the enclosure door but I do not normally install SQ D.

They also stated their PPs were intended for pumping installations. How many of you only install them for pumps?
Click to expand...

When so marked it means that the neutral is permanently bonded to the enclosure and can't be converted to use downstream of a main.
 
ptonsparky said:
Bidding a project that will require 5 pump panels. One of the quotes came back with it stating "Type 3R suitable for use only as Service Equipment". These will have SC protection ahead of them.

Usually I see "Suitable for use as Service Equipment" on the enclosure door but I do not normally install SQ D.

They also stated their PPs were intended for pumping installations. How many of you only install them for pumps?
Click to expand...
Suitable only for use as service equipment means the neutral bar is factory bonded to the enclosure and can only be used as service equipment or as separately derived system disconnecting means.

Having SC (-/GF ?) ahead of them leads me to believe these will not be service disconnecting means and thus non-compliant...???

If these are listed pump panels... just what else could anyone use them for and not be in violation???
 
Smart $ said:
Suitable only for use as service equipment means the neutral bar is factory bonded to the enclosure and can only be used as service equipment or as separately derived system disconnecting means.

Having SC (-/GF ?) ahead of them leads me to believe these will not be service disconnecting means and thus non-compliant...???

If these are listed pump panels... just what else could anyone use them for and not be in violation???
Click to expand...

Researching this a bit I found that my preferred vendor has been selling me Industrial Pump Panels and :eek:hmy: not Irrigation Pump Panels.
Have I been in violation for that detail as well?
 
ptonsparky said:
Researching this a bit I found that my preferred vendor has been selling me Industrial Pump Panels and :eek:hmy: not Irrigation Pump Panels.
Have I been in violation for that detail as well?
Click to expand...

Like Dennis, I don't see how that in-its-self would be a violation. From an inspectors standpoint a pump is a pump.

ptonsparky said:
So I can never connect an EG to that bonded connection if I am using a feeder to supply it? The load does not need a neutral.
Click to expand...

That's an interesting situation. Since it is listed "only as Service", it would be a violation under 110.3(b), however, since you are not bringing the neutral to that panel it is really no different than using a "regular" panel and using that "neutral" bar as a ground bar (and bonding it).
I can see why it has not been rejected if used on prior installs.
 
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ptonsparky said:
Researching this a bit I found that my preferred vendor has been selling me Industrial Pump Panels and :eek:hmy: not Irrigation Pump Panels.
Have I been in violation for that detail as well?
Click to expand...
I'm not familiar with any difference, and the NEC does not distinguish between the panel types. So compliance would fall back on the listing and/or manufacturer's instructions rather than being a direct NEC violation.
 
AFAIK, internally, the components of a PP are no different than any other enclosed starter with fuses and a disconnecting means. If anything, they would be more capable of handling fault currents. A size 4 starter does not care if the motor is an auger, fan, compressor or pump.

I have found that while the CH Industrial Pump Panels have selectable overload class (10, 20, 30) the SQ D units I have been given do not. It is an option. Could be why the CHs are just a tad more expensive and would also explain why the SQ Ds are intended for pumping installations. Pumps usually ask for class 10 overloads.
 
jumper said:
Why would I ever want a panel that has a permanently bonded neutral bus. It seems that this limits the installation use and would be a PITA.

Benefits?
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Tom kind of hit on a lot of what I was going to say. The "Pump Panel" is pretty much the same thing as a "combination starter". It has a disconnect with fuses or a breaker, a motor starter with overload relay, and usually includes a hand - off - auto and a start control switches. They are always suitable for use as service equipment, and some are marked suitable only as use for service equipment. There isn't anything that uses a neutral unless you would happen to add something, and the driven motor is usually straight three phase and uses no neutral either. IMO the only reason they are marked "only as use for service equipment" is the fact that there is no neutral terminal that can be isolated from the equipment enclosure, but if you have no neutral in the first place..... so what you have essentially the same thing as a combination starter. Because of the volume of pump panels sold at one of the supply houses here, they are a much better price than the equivalent combination starter and I do use them for more than just irrigation pumps, in fact if I need a size 4 contactor I can get a pump panel cheaper or about the same price as just the contactor alone.:(
 
what possible benefit could there be to make a piece of gear that is only suitable as service equipment?

the only difference that I can see between service equipment and not service equipment is the ability to bond the neutral to the egc. that is usually a screw with a green head on it.

maybe the ground bar and neutral being able to be the same thing might save 50 cents.


just does not seem like there is any real benefit.

I bet our shop could make "pump panels" for less than what the supply houses charge if we made them in quantity. I am amazed at how cheap components can be gotten for sometimes.
 
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petersonra said:
what possible benefit could there be to make a piece of gear that is only suitable as service equipment?

the only difference that I can see between service equipment and not service equipment is the ability to bond the neutral to the egc. that is usually a screw with a green head on it.

maybe the ground bar and neutral being able to be the same thing might save 50 cents.


just does not seem like there is any real benefit.
Click to expand...

This piece of equipment was intended to control a three phase motor that does not require any neutral. If it should have a 120 volt control circuit it would be separately derived within, most of the ones used around here only have control voltage same as incoming lines though, usually 480 volts. I still don't know why they list them as suitable only for use as service equipment though because you have pretty much the same thing if you use a combination starter as non service equipment. I don't believe that a combination starter is listed for use as service equipment at all though.
 
kwired said:
This piece of equipment was intended to control a three phase motor that does not require any neutral. If it should have a 120 volt control circuit it would be separately derived within, most of the ones used around here only have control voltage same as incoming lines though, usually 480 volts. I still don't know why they list them as suitable only for use as service equipment though because you have pretty much the same thing if you use a combination starter as non service equipment. I don't believe that a combination starter is listed for use as service equipment at all though.
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I can understand the need for service rated equipment. but I don't get why it would be rated as only being service equipment.

Maybe there is some non-obvious reason it makes sense.

having said that, we have made many hundreds of motor control panels and have yet to have anyone ever ask for service rating on them. UL508a has a provision for doing it, so it is possible, but we have never had anyone ever ask for it.

We do get a fair number of MCC specs in that specify they should be service rated. as best I can tell the only real difference is that the manufacturer has a neutral terminal added to the incoming section that is wired to the ground bus. I seem to recall at least one that the neutral terminal was just bolted to the frame of the MCC, but I might be remembering funny. that happens as you get old. :)

I got a Siemens MCC once that was service rated that the neutral terminal was not wired to anything at all. the field electrician had to run the bond. As I recall they actually have a kit you can buy to turn an existing MCC into a service rated one.

Where I used to work we would often get specs that required a neutral bus in the MCC, but I can't recall it was ever used for anything in any of the projects I did. It always looked to me like something someone had tacked on to the MCC as an afterthought.
 
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