Sump pump on a GFCI in a crawl space

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DerrickM

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Billings, Montana, USA
Good afternoon,

I got a call last Friday from our Plumber saying... "Hey, what's one thing you never put on a GFCI? It caught me off guard and I thought, what did I do now. He said, a sump pump... The GFCI must have tripped and now the crawl space is all flooded. I can't get to the pipe I'm trying to work at." So, I start to question what I did, think... Yeah I guess he's right, how would you know if the GFCI ever trips and then the sump floods the space? I read 210.8 (A) (4), and its pretty clear that crawl spaces require GFCI protection. This is a residential 4-plex type building.

I'm asking if anyone has run into a similar situation, and if you installed a basic indicating light on the outside of the building or something similar, as we work maintenance on several buildings around that area and would probably pick up on a light being on showing that it tripped down below.

There are obviously other foundation water issues, not huge, but enough moisture that GFCI was my first thought when I installed power.
As my electrical co worker said, better to be looking at a flooded crawl space then a dead body down there from electric shock.

Thank you in advance.
 
That's good to know about the GFCI with the audible alarm.

What happened, the GFCI failed so the pump could not run or was there a ground fault in the pump setup that caused the GFCI to trip? Just wondering
 
The GFCI tripped, which then the sump could not run.
Is there a ground fault in the sump? We still haven't figured that out yet.
The plumber reset the GFCI, and the pump started to run again, draining the space.
My plan was to go under there today now that its hopefully not a mud pool.

I like the idea of the alarm, I'm sure one of the residents would love hearing that at 3am in morning.
But we have campus police on 24 hrs and when ever there is a fire alarm trouble, we always get the call also, so the alarm idea is probably better then my indicating light idea.

Still open to suggestions.
Maybe the sump needs to be replaced but I still need to do something for if this ever happens again.

Thank you g men.
 
Is the GFCI in the crawlspace? Recent codes require GFCI's to be readily accessible. Regardless seems like good design to put it where you won't have to crawl through the water to reset it should that situation happen again.

I agree it is better to have a flooded crawlspace then to find a dead body in there because someone was electrocuted. They not only make audible alarm GFCI's, they also make water detection systems should the pump fail for any other reason.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I bought 10 of them years ago and the problem I had with them is that they were not very loud. You could have one go off in a basement and not hear it on the first floor.
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I can agree that isn't necessarily the best place for them. All the ones I have used were for notifying the user that the refrigerator/freezer in their garage (a place where they often pass through at least once a day) has tripped the GFCI. I guess you could place it somewhere where it is more likely to be noticed and feed through to the sump pump. If water damage is going to be critical enough situation I would suggest water detection/notification as well though.
 
>But we have campus police on 24 hrs and when ever there is a fire alarm trouble
If you have a fire alarm in the building is there a trouble circuit you can use? While
not a fire hazard one could claim having the crawl space flooded is a safety issue.

>Maybe the sump needs to be replaced but I still need to do something for if this ever happens again.
A sump pump with battery backup. You then have a battery that requires replacement on a fixed schedule.
I'd take that over just one visit of a mold / mildew remediation company
 
robertd said:
>But we have campus police on 24 hrs and when ever there is a fire alarm trouble
If you have a fire alarm in the building is there a trouble circuit you can use? While
not a fire hazard one could claim having the crawl space flooded is a safety issue.

>Maybe the sump needs to be replaced but I still need to do something for if this ever happens again.
A sump pump with battery backup. You then have a battery that requires replacement on a fixed schedule.
I'd take that over just one visit of a mold / mildew remediation company
Click to expand...

Fire alarm code may not allow that, IDK. Any kind of security system or other monitoring systems it can tie into?

Chances are there is wired/wireless networking in the building, so something web based wouldn't be all that hard to set up.
 
I always install the audible GFCI in a hallway or a room that is used on regular bases. So when it trips they can hear the alarm. Too bad there is no dead front GFCI with the alarm.

A secondary alarm is also installed by the sump pump installer that is a float switch. If the pump is off and the water level rises then a secondary alarm sounds way before the place gets flooded.
 
Wire the load side of the GFCI to a relay. When the gfci trips, the relay opens and turns on a rotating red beacon placed where it will be seen. Won't wake up residents at 3am, but will get noticed fairly fast.
 
I'm with Coppersmith, ice cube relay held open by the GFCI circuit - set and beacon and/or audible alarm wherever you would like. I would also install a GFCI breaker in the panel instead of at the receptacle - reset it from a nice dry location.
 
DerrickM said:
The GFCI tripped, which then the sump could not run.
Is there a ground fault in the sump? We still haven't figured that out yet.
The plumber reset the GFCI, and the pump started to run again, draining the space.
My plan was to go under there today now that its hopefully not a mud pool.

I like the idea of the alarm, I'm sure one of the residents would love hearing that at 3am in morning.
But we have campus police on 24 hrs and when ever there is a fire alarm trouble, we always get the call also, so the alarm idea is probably better then my indicating light idea.

Still open to suggestions.
Maybe the sump needs to be replaced but I still need to do something for if this ever happens again.

Thank you g men.
Click to expand...

Maybe use a GFCI breaker, instead, or move the protected outlet upstream out of the crawl space and feed the crawl space on the load side?
 
kwired said:
Fire alarm code may not allow that, IDK. Any kind of security system or other monitoring systems it can tie into?

Chances are there is wired/wireless networking in the building, so something web based wouldn't be all that hard to set up.
Click to expand...

NFPA 72 doesn't prohibit this sort of thing, local amendments not withstanding. The only requirement is that this interconnection has to never be able to interfere with the normal operation of the fire alarm panel.
 
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