Support of devices in suspended ceiling

[dedbrk]

We have an AHJ in our area that has recently required independent support of the following devices in suspended ceilings: track lighting, troffers, exit lights, egress lights, receptacles, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 300.11(A)2, 314.23(D) and 410.16(C) all consider listed hangers and/or clips to be sufficient support of such in your everyday run of the mill suspended ceiling system as long as the ceiling is installed per manufactures instructions and connected to the building structure. I feel these articles are pretty straight forward in the description of requirements. Basically I want all documentation for or against to resolve this issue. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Bob

 

[kqresq]

Is he possibly concerned with the seismic restraint requirements of the 2003 International Building Code. The IBC references ASCE-7 for seismic requirements and ASTM C 635 and C 636 for acoustic ceilings. I haven't found anything in ASCE-7, but I don't have ASTM C635 or 636 available to me at this time.

 

[iwire]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 300.11(A)2, 314.23(D) and 410.16(C) all consider listed hangers and/or clips to be sufficient support of such in your everyday run of the mill suspended ceiling system as long as the ceiling is installed per manufactures instructions and connected to the building structure.

Look carefully at 300.11(A)(2) and in particular the exception.

Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support branch-circuit wiring and associated equipment where installed in accordance with the ceiling system manufacturer?s instructions.

I take that to mean we must follow manufactures instruction in regards to securing our electric equipment to it.

If you could show the inspector that what you have done is approved by the ceiling manufacturer you would be all set.

 

[JohnE]

Look carefully at 300.11(A)(2) and in particular the exception.



I take that to mean we must follow manufactures instruction in regards to securing our electric equipment to it.

If you could show the inspector that what you have done is approved by the ceiling manufacturer you would be all set.

Bob,

I take that to mean the ceiling is installed to manufacturer's spec's, with the idea being that if it is, then it could support branch circuit wiring and associated equipment.

 

[JohnE]

I haven't posted much with the new format. I'll have to read the what happened post. I meant to quote bob's entire reply. Hope it made sense.

 

[Jljohnson]

I always read that section and understood it the way Bob describes. In our area (colorado), we have been required to install seperate supports on light fixtures quite awhile now. We have not been allowed to attach conduit or boxes to the CEILING grid wires either,. We must install our own wires if we want to support a conduit sytem from a suspended wire system. We are allowed to attach our wires to the grid system to provide a secure installation for our system but these wires must be in addition the ones installed by the ceiling crews.

 

[eprice]

dedbrk,

I see that you are from Washington. I understand that Washington has adopted the International Building Code. As kqresq has stated, the IBC referes to ASCE-7. ASCE-7 Section 9.6.2.6.2.2 covers installations in seismic design categories D, E, and F. I suspect you will find that you are in one of those categories. That section requires ceiling grids and associated equipment to be installed in accordance with CISCA recommendations for seismic zones 3 & 4. (CISCA is the Ceilings & Interior Systems Construction Association). The requirments for the independant supports of the items you mention can be found on page 2 of that CISCA document.

 

[dnem]

We have an AHJ in our area that has recently required independent support of the following devices in suspended ceilings: track lighting, troffers, exit lights, egress lights, receptacles, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 300.11(A)2, 314.23(D) and 410.16(C) all consider listed hangers and/or clips to be sufficient support of such in your everyday run of the mill suspended ceiling system as long as the ceiling is installed per manufactures instructions and connected to the building structure. I feel these articles are pretty straight forward in the description of requirements. Basically I want all documentation for or against to resolve this issue. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Bob

Setting aside the seismic consideration for a moment. If I was the inspector on this job, my question to you would be about the "listed hangers and/or clips to be sufficient support of such in your everyday run of the mill suspended ceiling system as long as the ceiling is installed per manufactures instructions".
The manufacturers instructions probably list different requirements for different levels of weight bearing. The amount of support needed for the weight of just the grid itself would be specified. Adding X amount of additional weight (in the form of electrical equipment) may require an additional amount of support speced.

In our department, if the specs are unknown, we have a default position.

For 2x4s or 2x2s you can either:
a) have one support wire to the grid within 6 inches of the light at 3 or 4 corners plus screw or clip the light to the grid or
b) have one support wire directly to the light at 3 or 4 corners

For recessed cans or other light stuff you can either:
a) have one support wire to the grid within 6 inches of the light at 2 spots plus screw or clip the light to the grid or
b) have one support wire directly to the light at 1 spot

This is nothing official or even enforcable. But you need to have some sort of position if the contractor doesn't provide specs. You could show this post to your inspector but it's doubtful that he'll care what we do in Ohio. It might sway him to ease up if he's reasonable.

David

 

[iwire]

Bob,

I take that to mean the ceiling is installed to manufacturer's spec's, with the idea being that if it is, then it could support branch circuit wiring and associated equipment.

IMO It is not up to the NEC to control how the ceiling is installed.

Don't you think it would be up to the ceiling manufacture to determine what, if any, objects the grid can support?

 

[cowboyjwc]

Ever since the '94 Northridge quake we require everything to have a support wire. Outlet boxes, lights, fire alarm, speakers. When you go into a building and see the corner of a speaker inbedded in something you realize that it could have been someones head. The idea of course is simple, to keep everything that is supposed to be overhead, overhead, this way it does not come down and lay on the floor and block the exits or fall on somebody as I said before.

Per the CA Building code: "All recessed or drop-in light fixtures and grilles shall be supported directly from the fixture housing to the structure above with a minimum of two 12 gage wires located at diagonally opposite corners.

Surface mounted fixtures shall be attached to the main runner with at least two positive clamping devices....A 12 gage suspension wire shall be attached to each clamping device and to the structure above."

And then there is some other things in the ASTM standards.

Not everything haveing to do with the electrical system comes out of the NEC.

Remember the manufactures instructions could say "this ceiling system shall not be used to support lighting fixtures"

 

[dedbrk]

Wow, I got some really good feedback from this thread. I thank each and everyone of you for your time. I think what I will do is get the manufactures specs and show them to the AHJ to validate my concerns. Here in Washington State we do have a building code that requires seismic support wires on light fixtures in suspended ceilings. To my knowledge, the AHJ has no enforceable power over such building codes, only what comes out of the NEC and what comes out of the state requirements (RCW and WAC). The main problem that I had from the AHJ is the fact that he is trying to mandate the use of seismic wires with NEC code reference that in my opinion state otherwise, 300.11(A)2, 314.23(D) and 410.16(C). It is great to have such a large knowledge tank available to me at a moments notice. Thanks again to all. Bob

 

[JohnE]

IMO It is not up to the NEC to control how the ceiling is installed.

Don't you think it would be up to the ceiling manufacture to determine what, if any, objects the grid can support?

Bob,

I do think it is up to the ceiling manufacturer or listing agency as to what their product could support. But recently a neighboring inspector took an EC to the state on a school job for supporting exit signs and smoke and heat detectors directly to the grid and lost.

The more I think about it, I'd say that if it were not permitted, it would be a violation of the building code, not the electrical code. I really am not well versed on suspended ceiling applications, other than what's covered by NEC. I have a friend who installs these ceilings every day, and I know there is a standard for how far apart and what size supports are needed. I'm not sure what that standard is.

I'll put it on a mental list to look into.

John

 

[iwire]

But recently a neighboring inspector took an EC to the state on a school job for supporting exit signs and smoke and heat detectors directly to the grid and lost.

John in that particular case do you know the grid manufacturers position?

If hanging exits and heats from the grid was in accordance with the manufactures instructions than it would not be a violation.

On the other hand if the grid maker says "Noting to be supported from the grid" than IMO there is a 300.11(A) violation.

 

[JohnE]

I do not know the position of the grid manufacturer. I know the EC and the inspector. I'm very friendly with the inspector, and he's much improved from his first days on the job, but he's known to be extremely difficult. To the letter of the code.

John

 

[wavector]

South Florida

South Florida

I did a job in Sunrise, Florida, where the AHJ required seperate supports for a fire rated suspended ceiling. All conduit and fixtures had to have seperate supports.

 

[dnem]

Here in Washington State we do have a building code that requires seismic support wires on light fixtures in suspended ceilings. To my knowledge, the AHJ has no enforceable power over such building codes, only what comes out of the NEC and what comes out of the state requirements (RCW and WAC).

I don't understand what you're saying here. At first you say he has "no enforceable power over such building codes" and then you add "only ..... NEC and what comes out of the state requirements (RCW and WAC)". Don't the seismic requirements come out of the state requirements ?
What code are you saying the AHJ has no enforcement power over ?
What code is the RCW & WAC ?

David

 

[dedbrk]

RCW=Revised Code of Washington
WAC=Washington Administrative Code

What I'm trying to express here is that the seismic support requirements for light fixtures comes out of the IBC and not the rules that our local L&I inspector governs (NEC, RCW or WAC). To my knowledge it is the building inspector that can make decisions on the proper seismic support of not only the suspended ceiling, but all systems installed in on or above such. The electrical inspector decides if the light fixture is supported properly. It can be supported independently of the grid system or it can be supported to the grid system by mechanical means such as bolts, listed clips, etc. if the framing members are securely fastened to each other and securely attached the building structure at appropriate intervals. What are appropriate intervals? My guess would be in accordance with the manufactures instructions (110.3b). The instructions would also tell you how much weight that light fixture can be without the need for independent support. Basically, if the light fixture is set in a grid system that is assembled properly and the light fixture is secured to the grid with listed clips then the support requirements for that fixture are met and no additional support is needed per the NEC.

Are seismic wires installed on all 2x4 light fixtures in suspended ceilings in our area? Yes, due to the IBC based on our seismic zone. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I'm trying not to make this more complicated than it is.

Bob

 

[dnem]

What I'm trying to express here is that the seismic support requirements for light fixtures comes out of the IBC and not the rules that our local L&I inspector governs (NEC, RCW or WAC). To my knowledge it is the building inspector that can make decisions on the proper seismic support of not only the suspended ceiling, but all systems installed in on or above such. The electrical inspector decides if the light fixture is supported properly. It can be supported independently of the grid system or it can be supported to the grid system by mechanical means such as bolts, listed clips, etc. if the framing members are securely fastened to each other and securely attached the building structure at appropriate intervals.

That's what I thought that you meant.
But you may not be too happy if you get what you're asking for. Let me explain.

We get this same type of situation with fire alarms. When an electrical inspector ignores items that are part of the building code but impact any electrical device installation, then what can happen is that after your electrical inspection passes, the building inspector comes out and fails the install, and you have to make corrections before a reinspection (reinspection fee #1).

But before the building inspector returns, he wants the reworked portions of the electrical to be reinspected by the electrical inspector (reinspection fee #2).

But if the electrical inspector catches it on his rough, corrections can be made, and then an electrical reinspection (reinspection fee #1) and the building inspector then comes out only one time.

You get less reinspection fees if the electrical inspector catches it up front.

The electrical item in the building code is required by the building inspector but inspected for proper installation by the electrical inspector since the NEC requires all electrical devices to be properly installed. The electical inspector must inspect all electrical equipment that is installed for proper installation. It doesn't matter if they are devices required by the NEC, devices that are required by other codes, or devices that are not required but installed by customer choice.

David