Surge of death (to electronics)

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electricmanscott

electricmanscott

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Location
Boston, MA
Occupation
Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Went on a call today. Two issues. First the woman claims her electric bill has tripled over the last few months. Poco was there changing out meter and said this is the second one in the neighborhood. Meters are being sent out for testing.
Second, a car took out a pad mounted transformer yesterday. Every single thing with any electronics in it was fried, only in her house. Neighbors lost power and that's it. Surge protector power strips did nothing. Any thoughts on the random misfortune of these people?
 
Re: Surge of death (to electronics)

I just wonder who will have to front the money for the new electronics. Insurance, Driver, Electric Company, or homeowner.
 
Re: Surge of death (to electronics)

I just can't seem to find a common thread here except maybe the two meters.

The story is lacking tons of important details like do the two customers know each other? Did the first customer tell the second about their meter thereby encouraging the second to request the same or did she on her own call the POCO and the POCO guy told her about the other in the neighborhood? What are the electric charges now with a new meter? Does she have electric heat?

As far as the transformer, nothing unusual there.

-Hal
 
Re: Surge of death (to electronics)

On one hand it sounds rather normal.

But then it also sounds like the bus wreck where people rush onto the bus after it crashes.

My electric bills always double this time of year, last few monthes? What about compared to last year this time.

Yeah, need more data.
 
Re: Surge of death (to electronics)

Any chance her AC is running at same time ? Thats not a way out thing to happen.I seen it at a friends mobile.It was late and dark so didn't fix that night.Felt the hot air coming off the outside unit and it was dripping water yet the house was getting warmer.Relay was hung up.
Would need more info like actual usage in kw per month for last year.If in fact it has trippled then investigate.Could have a underground wire maybe to a shed thats leaking to ground,etc..Could take a few hours to track this problem.Transformer has nothing to do with first problem.I see a lawyer getting involved in the cost of replacement electronics.
 
Re: Surge of death (to electronics)

The price of energy to generate electricity over the last 12 months has risen over 100%. That would double the bill. Add to that the weather has been colder than last year, the utility bills very likely could triple due to seasonal increase in usage.
On the electronics failures:
If her service was not adequately grounded- neutral/ground bonded sercurely and a low impedence path back to ground- when the transformer was struck a fault could have shifted the zero reference from XO (assuming the distibution was WYE) to one of the phases. That would send a higher sustained voltage to the residence that would take out small electrical devices but be below the clamping voltage of most residential TVSS and below what motors and other more robust appliances can withstand.
That's one way to explain what happened.
 
Re: Surge of death (to electronics)

Rick,

I'm not seeing what you're saying. I'm assuming you're saying there may have been no, or a not good, main bonding jumper?
 
Re: Surge of death (to electronics)

A voltage below the clamping voltage is one explination for why the surge protectors didn't help. A surge like that usually has to last a pretty long time to take out electronics (it might even take serveral seconds). But that is entirely possible.

It may be a good thing the neighbors breaker tripped. That may have saved a lot of electronics.

I'm not sure how this relates, but I was in a office once, when the wind blew some power line phases into each other (we could walk outside and watch and hear the lines arc). We lost one phase of the 3 phase service. It really fried all the computers that wern't on a surge suppressor. And it fried all the surge suppressors also. I opened mine up, and it was full of burnt parts and black carbon.

[ January 19, 2005, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: steve66 ]
 
Re: Surge of death (to electronics)

The price of energy to generate electricity over the last 12 months has risen over 100%. That would double the bill.
Click to expand...
Rick, I am having a bit of trouble with that statement. I think I would have heard of that type of problem. We have not raised or prices over the last 12 months and if the cost of generation had doubled, we would have been bankrupt by now. Where are you that the energy prices have doubled in the past year? :D
 
Re: Surge of death (to electronics)

I can say that gasoline has nearly doubled in the last year in California? At least northern.

It's gone from like $1.50 to $2.75 in around a year. For some reason it's back down to about $2.20 for the last couple weeks, but I'm sure it'll be right back up in a couple days or weeks.

The news slash lying fest shows here tell us this is typical of the whole country.
 
Re: Surge of death (to electronics)

I thought it was energy, I dunno.

Edit: our news slash fib fest shows tell us there related. :D

[ January 19, 2005, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: Surge of death (to electronics)

I don't want to go on a tangent here with energy prices but, the NYMEX Henry Hub price of natural gas per million BTU has increased as follows:
June '02 $2.25
June '03 $4.50
June '04 $6.75
November '04 $9.25 (Hurricane Ivan)
Average price today is $7.40 MMBTU.
OK maybe not exactly 100% in 12 months but substantal anyway you slice it.
Electricity is mostly generated with natural gas nationally and the price is weighted across other forms i.e. nuclear, coal, wind and water to get the price you pay. In a regulated market, you may not see these kinds of fluctuations.It is a commodity market that would make a scary roller coaster. Enough of that....

On another question about what I was getting at with my theory over frying electronics: the bonding jumper would indeed need to be missing altogether, improperly installed at the residence and also have the damage at the transformer disrupt the bonding scheme there also. Without a solid bond to ground the reference goes to highest voltage to ground- a single phase service would present 240V a 3 phase service 208, etc. That would explain why this problem is localized to this one person, the TVSS did not see a problem and the OCPD did not do it's thing.
I was only making things fit with the information available. I try to see beyond the way things are supposed to be but, rather what happens if they are not the way they are supposed to be. That is where most of these strange circumstances come from- something isn't right.
 
Re: Surge of death (to electronics)

Thanks Rick.

I wonder how electric utilities are able to absorb that kind of an increase? We don't have that kind of a problem since we have long term coal contracts and lots of scrubbers. :D
 
Re: Surge of death (to electronics)

Originally posted by rick hart:

Electricity is mostly generated with natural gas nationally and the price is weighted across other forms i.e. nuclear, coal, wind and water to get the price you pay.
Click to expand...
What? By number of plants this might be true, but unless natural gas generation has more than trippled in the last 3 years... In 2000 it made up ~15%. Mostly peaking plants. Base load accounting for about 75% was coal and nuclear.
 
Re: Surge of death (to electronics)

Base load accounting for about 75% was coal and nuclear.
Click to expand...
Again, the news/fibfest shows have been telling me that natural gas is the big fuel.

Oh, and gasoline Charlie. :D
 
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