Surge suppression on 2 wire ct

[wyreman]

Hey whenever we have ungrounded outlets I was replacing the GFI and tell him if they want to surge protector on there that's the best we can do without running a new Circuit back to the panel

Now I find out that surge protector there only ensured if they have a ground wire with them.

I also know bootleg grounds are not allowed anymore so what's an electrician to do?

And I'm having a hard time understanding how to use my sure test circuit analyzer to determine If I have a bootleg ground
I never read the book I just got it used on eBay :/

 

[mhanson]

wyreman,

 

[mhanson]

Surge suppression on 2 wire ct

wyreman

I don't believe a circuit tester will identify the source of an equipment ground, It has no way to determine a code compliant installation, it only knows that a ground connection exists.

As far as providing an equipment ground to an existing non grounded installation, we have a several options, Please refer to 2008 NEC 250.130 (C) lists the acceptable points of connection to the grounding system.

 

[G._S._Ohm]

Somebody must make two wire, line-to-line protectors and you get slightly less protection. The three wire gives you common mode and differential mode protection, the two wire gives only differential mode protection.

 

[wyreman]

San Francisco building inspector doesn't allow bootleg grounds

 

[Ponchik]

San Francisco building inspector doesn't allow bootleg grounds

Nobody allows that not even the NEC.



For your tool box.
http://www.idealindustries.com/medi...uctions/nd-5481-4_61-164-165_instructions.pdf

 

[mhanson]

Surge suppression on 2 wire ct

I'm not familiar with the term "Bootleg Ground"

can someone please explain. :?

Thank You.

 

[Ponchik]

When you install a jumper from the neutral side terminal of the receptacle to the grounding terminal.

 

[mhanson]

When you install a jumper from the neutral side terminal of the receptacle to the grounding terminal.

Thank You,
Yes, I've seen this used when an inspector's hand held GFCI tester does not trip the GFCI with no ground attached. a small jumper from the neutral terminal to the ground screw, and vwala, the tester trips wen the button is pressed. Also it shows as a properly wired grouned circuit.

I guess the electrician thought it best to deceive the inspector instead of educating him.

Did you know that the only UL approved method for testing a GFCI receptacle / Circuit breaker, & AFCI breaker is the test button on the device.

I appologize, I've side tracked myself, I also have never known this practice to be acceptable

 

[G._S._Ohm]

Did you know that the only UL approved method for testing a GFCI receptacle / Circuit breaker, & AFCI breaker is the test button on the device.

For the record, why would UL not approve of running a 16K resistor from hot to ground to test a GFCI?

 

[wyreman]

Bootleg ground

Bootleg ground

Bootleg ground as in a loose #12 or #14 dangling out of an outlet box and running across a garage ceiling to any water pipe, hopefully the incoming main - near the entrance.

Doesn't require removing old ones, just no new ones

 

[wyreman]

The other kind is a "fake ground"

 

[kwired]

I don't necessarily thing pressing the test button on a GFCI is as much the only way UL recognizes testing the device, as much as it is the manufacturer instructions, which are part of the listing, being the place where it says to test it that way.

Creating an actual fault above the set trip point (which is supposed to be 4-6 mA) should trip it no matter what or there is a problem. After all the device is designed to respond to imbalanced current between the circuit conductors and not just the test button.

As far as surge protection goes, if you only have a two wire circuit you only have surge protection on two wires. If you have a bootlegged ground, you have some protection on the ground, but you likely have more serious hazards with the bootleg ground than you will ever resolve with what surge protection is on the ground.

 

[ElectricianJeff]

I hope I got these attached right. I carry these with me and have used to educate Inspectors. They always appreciate the info

 

[kwired]

Although I agree that the test button on the GFCI is probably the best way to test the GFCI, the "plug in tester" is an easy way to determine if non GFCI type receptacles have GFCI protection. Push the test button, and if you don't lose power you either have no protection or there is a problem with the protection.

 

[wyreman]

The ideal sure test has so many undiscovered features.
Found on the back label the simple diagram regarding the indicators for each of the 3 prongs
There is an empty signal for no ground and
An "f" for false ground, must be the neutral

 

[G._S._Ohm]

When you install a jumper from the neutral side terminal of the receptacle to the grounding terminal.

And so

if
the appliance is drawing heavy current
and
has internal leakage to the case
and
your hands are wet

then
the 2vac or so that could be on the case as measured with respect to ground may injure some few people some of the time if they are grounded.