Sw. Pool Bonding vs. grounding

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marble

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On new above grnd. pools, most of the metal parts are covered in pvc or plastic. How do you or do you bond all covered parts or is one attatchment to a dedicated lug all that is neccessary w/#8 solid to the motor lug? (also bonding metal deck, ladder, etc.). Also, is the circuit "groundING" conductor not to be attatched to this #8 solid? (#12 wire)
 
sw. pools: bonding vs. grounding

sw. pools: bonding vs. grounding

Thanks. I know the #8 goes to the lug on the motor but what about all the pvc coated metal parts of the coping, shell and attatched deck. Are they considered as "one" continuous piece of metal?
 
it depends on what your inspector wants. in my county i drill and tap a bonding lug at one location on the pool metal (a post) and run that to the motor lug with #8. But i know in some states a #8 has to be ran all the way around the pool and each upright post has to be bonded. that's a lot of bonding...a typical 24' pool has 16 posts.
 
Sw. Pool Bonding vs. grounding

marble said:
Thanks. I know the #8 goes to the lug on the motor but what about all the pvc coated metal parts of the coping, shell and attatched deck. Are they considered as "one" continuous piece of metal?
Click to expand...

IMO the best place to bond the wall of a above ground pool is by removing the upright next to the skimmer and bonding to one of the bolts that hold the wall together.

The 2008 NEC has a lot of changes.
 
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The last above ground pool I did I had hit the bottom track 4 or 5 times,.. pool walls were the wrong size so it was accessible ,..when all was said and done ,..I checked for continuity between top and bottom track ,..there was none ,,I checked track between uprights ,,.nope ..the only parts that were bonded were the 4 or 5 spots I had hit....

If my memory serves me the uprights were plastic and the metal junction points for the top and bottom track were some sort of slip fit thing no screws.

To bond this pool would have required bonding every separate piece of track top and bottom ,and at every upright ,..About 100 connections .

I dislike pools ,..the water alone kills about 300 children under the age of 5 each year...plus they can be a royal pain to wire.
 
marble said:
Thanks. I know the #8 goes to the lug on the motor but what about all the pvc coated metal parts of the coping, shell and attatched deck. Are they considered as "one" continuous piece of metal?
Click to expand...

Are they bolted together ?
 
I like the requirement that all the metal be bonded, but the part about bonding the water just doesn't sit right with me. Does anyone have a link to the science that went behind this decision ?

(On another note, I am in the process of developing a floating rubber ducky that will transport a bonding wire around the pool, similar to the travelling vacuums. I just can't figure out how to make it wireless)
 
M. D. said:
The last above ground pool I did I had hit the bottom track 4 or 5 times,.. pool walls were the wrong size so it was accessible ,..when all was said and done ,..I checked for continuity between top and bottom track ,..there was none ,,I checked track between uprights ,,.nope ..the only parts that were bonded were the 4 or 5 spots I had hit....
Click to expand...

"I checked for continuity between top and bottom track ,..there was none"
Marble
If you're wiring pools and you're not checking for continuity, you're flying by the "seat of your pants" and trusting that your eyes will pick up everything.
[And I'm not accusing, I'm just talking here]

During my carnival inspection last week I came extremely close to missing a major violation all because of some metal colored insulators. . Your eyes are just one of your tools. . With pools a mistake can easily cause a death.
 
sparky59 said:
it depends on what your inspector wants. in my county i drill and tap a bonding lug at one location on the pool metal (a post) and run that to the motor lug with #8. But i know in some states a #8 has to be ran all the way around the pool and each upright post has to be bonded. that's a lot of bonding...a typical 24' pool has 16 posts.
Click to expand...

"it depends on what your inspector wants"
wants ? or is he enforcing a code ?

it depends on what your code requires
Are you on '05, '05 with TIA, or '08 ?
It makes a huge difference
 
marble said:
On new above grnd. pools, most of the metal parts are covered in pvc or plastic. How do you or do you bond all covered parts or is one attatchment to a dedicated lug all that is neccessary w/#8 solid to the motor lug? (also bonding metal deck, ladder, etc.). Also, is the circuit "groundING" conductor not to be attatched to this #8 solid? (#12 wire)
Click to expand...

Also, is the circuit "groundING" conductor not to be attatched to this #8 solid? (#12 wire)

That question made my head hurt.:confused:
It's so hard to answer a question when "shorthand" is used. . You can't look up "groundING conductor" in the NEC. . You can't find out the requirements for a "#8". . And you can't find out the requirements for a "#12".

You've got to get these categories straight and drop the "shorthand" or you'll never get to the right spots in the NEC.

The jobs of bonding [and grounding] wires are separated into 3 main categories
1] electrode
2] equipotential
3] equipment

1] electrode, 250.32 says, "Building(s) or structure(s) supplied by feeder(s) or branch circuit(s) shall have a grounding electrode ..... installed .....". . Is the pool a "structure" ? . Yes. . Is it supplied by more than "a single branch circuit" or a shared neutral "multiwire branch circuit" ? . Usually. . Should this rule apply to a pedestal mounted pool feeder panel ? . My answer is yes. . But don't confuse a electrode requirement with a equipotential requirement.

A ground rod is an electrode. . It's conductor goes to the panel enclosure. [250.32(B) connected to the ..... disconnecting means]

2] equipotential, When you say "#8" you're probably talking about equipotential, which bonds to the motor housing. . This would also bond to the lug on the outside of any wet niche fixture and also to all pool metal and also to the pool deck/sidewalk structure. [680.26(B)(1)-(7)]

3] equipment, Your equipment ground [grounding conductor] is required to be #12 or larger insulated copper run with the other circuit/feeder conductors. [250.134(B), 300.3(B)]. . The equipment ground for a light niche nonmetalic conduit is required to be #8 and insulated [680.23(B)(2)(b)]. . The equipment ground for the light has limits on joints and splices [680.23(F)(2)]. . The bond lug on the inside of the wet niche fixture is for equipment ground and must be "encapsulated in, a suitable potting compound". [680.23(B)(4)]

Notice that pool electrode questions are answered mainly in 250.50,
pool equipotential questions are answered mainly in 680.26,
and pool equipment ground questions are answered mainly in 680 before .26

Getting back to your question:
Also, is the circuit "groundING" conductor not to be attatched to this #8 solid? (#12 wire)
If I assume that you mean:
Also, is the circuit equipment grounding conductor (#12 wire) not to be attached to this #8 solid equipotential bonding conductor ?
If my assumption is right, the only time that the pool equipment and equipotential grounding conductors terminate on the same point is 680.26(B)(6)(a), Double-Insulated Water Pump Motors. . Otherwise the equipment ground terminations are inside the equipment with the other circuit conductors. . Equipotential lugs are found on the outside of the equipment.
 
Clarification on the pool issues appreciated!

Clarification on the pool issues appreciated!

marble said:
On new above grnd. pools, most of the metal parts are covered in pvc or plastic. How do you or do you bond all covered parts or is one attatchment to a dedicated lug all that is neccessary w/#8 solid to the motor lug? (also bonding metal deck, ladder, etc.). Also, is the circuit "groundING" conductor not to be attatched to this #8 solid? (#12 wire)
Click to expand...

I have seen a number of questions related to above ground pools. I was checking for clarification with so many of the responses on bonding etc. with above ground pools.

Section II covers permanently installed pools

Section III covers storable pools (definitions are earlier in the section relating to what is a storable pool)

So many above ground pools fall into the storable pool category and by the requirements defined in III, there is no bonding required of the walls, water etc.
Am I correct? Or not?

Huge difference in permenantly installed pools and storable pools.
Thanks for your input.
Mr. T
 
Verification on bonding.

Verification on bonding.

My apologies for a double post on the subject but had a little more info to add.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marble
On new above grnd. pools, most of the metal parts are covered in pvc or plastic. How do you or do you bond all covered parts or is one attatchment to a dedicated lug all that is neccessary w/#8 solid to the motor lug? (also bonding metal deck, ladder, etc.). Also, is the circuit "groundING" conductor not to be attatched to this #8 solid? (#12 wire)


I have seen a number of questions related to above ground pools. I was checking for verification with so many of the responses on bonding etc. with above ground pools and the definite difficulty of bonding them.

680
Section I covers permanently installed and storable pools

Section II covers permanently installed pools

Section III covers storable pools (definitions are earlier in the section relating to what is a storable pool)

So many above ground pools fall into the storable pool category and by the requirements defined in III, there is no bonding required of the walls, water etc.
Missing anything?

Also is the excerpt from an article by Jeffrey Sargent in NECPlus:
There are clear distinctions made in these definitions between ?permanently installed? and ?storable? pools. One of the most important distinguishing features is the difference implied by the titles of the terms. A permanently installed pool is located in or on one site and is not manufactured or built as a structure that can be easily relocated. A storable pool, as implied by its name, is specifically manufactured to facilitate relocation and/or storage. The water depth of 42 inches (established based on swimming pool industry standards) is also a defining benchmark, however this depth is not applicable in the case of inflatable pools or aboveground pools that are constructed with nonmetallic molded polymeric walls. Regardless of depth, these ?on or above the ground? swimming pools are considered to be ?storable swimming, wading, or immersion? pools.

Huge difference in permenantly installed pools and storable pools.
Thanks for your input.
Mr. T
 
KnobnTube said:
680
Section I covers permanently installed and storable pools

Section II covers permanently installed pools

Section III covers storable pools (definitions are earlier in the section relating to what is a storable pool)

So many above ground pools fall into the storable pool category and by the requirements defined in III, there is no bonding required of the walls, water etc.
Missing anything?
Click to expand...

You?re right. . The difference is very large between the 2.

KnobnTube said:
Also is the excerpt from an article by Jeffrey Sargent in NECPlus:
There are clear distinctions made in these definitions between ?permanently installed? and ?storable? pools. One of the most important distinguishing features is the difference implied by the titles of the terms. A permanently installed pool is located in or on one site and is not manufactured or built as a structure that can be easily relocated. A storable pool, as implied by its name, is specifically manufactured to facilitate relocation and/or storage. The water depth of 42 inches (established based on swimming pool industry standards) is also a defining benchmark, however this depth is not applicable in the case of inflatable pools or aboveground pools that are constructed with nonmetallic molded polymeric walls. Regardless of depth, these ?on or above the ground? swimming pools are considered to be ?storable swimming, wading, or immersion? pools.

Huge difference in permenantly installed pools and storable pools.
Thanks for your input.
Mr. T
Click to expand...

I don?t dispute any of Jeff Sargents points but I just wanted to add from the practical side that to inspect a pool and consider words like ?not manufactured or built as a structure that can be easily relocated? is not practical. . I have no way to judge ?easily relocated?. . That opens up an inspection to a wide range of interpretation that goes in the opposite direction of uniform interpretation from one inspector to the next, from one jurisdiction top the next.

I stick with the definitions. . For metal pools it?s 42? but remember that it?s not either to the top edge of the top rail nor is it to whatever water level they have it at when you get to the site. . It?s ?capable of holding water to a maximum depth of 42 inches?. . The manufacturers instructions almost always specify the water fill range as around the midpoint of the skimmer opening mouth. . The skimmer doesn?t operate properly if you miss that range given. . The top number in that range is the ?capable of holding water? level. . 99% of the pools I inspect are manufacturer designed to be 48? or 54?.

For non-metallic polymeric or fabric sided pools, they are all categorized as storable. . For years the manufacturers have been replacing one piece after another with plastic and even encapsulating the metal pool wall in plastic. . Once I start seeing the pool wall that?s actually metalfree, I?m going to be seeing a big increase in pools that are installed exactly like above ground permanent pools have always been but can now be categorized as storable. . I?m not going to be considering ?not manufactured or built as a structure that can be easily relocated?. . If it makes the definition of storable by 680 but they?ve removed the grass and bedded it on sand, then I?ll inspect it according to which motor is installed. . UL Swimming Pool Equipment, Spas, Fountains, and Hydromassage Bathtubs Marking Guide page 7 under Pumps, General says a motor for a permanently installed pool is marked: ?This Pump is for Use Permanently Installed Pools Only ? Do Not Use with Storable Pools.?. . Page 11 under Pumps, Storable Pools Only says a motor for a storable pool is marked: ?This Pump is for Use with Storable Pools Only ? Do Not with Permanently Installed Pools.?. . If I see neither marking, I?ll go with the 680 definitions.
 
dnem said:
The manufacturers instructions almost always specify the water fill range as around the midpoint of the skimmer opening mouth. . The skimmer doesn?t operate properly if you miss that range given. .

Page 11 under Pumps, Storable Pools Only says a motor for a storable pool is marked: ?This Pump is for Use with Storable Pools Only ? Do Not with Permanently Installed Pools.?.
Click to expand...

Thanks David,
I feel the only dumb question, is the one not asked, so here goes.
In your jurisdiction, you come across a pool with 52" sidewalls but the skimmer opening is at the 42" level and the motor is marked as above--This Pump is for Use with Storable Pools Only ? Do Not with Permanently Installed Pools--
But the customer has the water level at 48".

What would this pool be catergorized to yourself?

Thanks,
 
KnobnTube said:
Thanks David,
I feel the only dumb question, is the one not asked, so here goes.
In your jurisdiction, you come across a pool with 52" sidewalls but the skimmer opening is at the 42" level and the motor is marked as above--This Pump is for Use with Storable Pools Only ? Do Not with Permanently Installed Pools--
But the customer has the water level at 48".

What would this pool be catergorized to yourself?

Thanks,
Click to expand...

52" sidewalls
Doesn't matter

customer has the water level at 48"
Doesn't matter

skimmer opening is at the 42" level
That's the one that matters

Pump is for Use with Storable Pools Only
I'm inspecting a storable pool, requirements in 680 pts 1 + 3. . Any other bonding I see is voluntary.
 
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