Swim Ex and gfi protection

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eds

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I have a client that is in the processs of building a new home. In the basement of this home there are plans to install a swim ex , this is a pool that has a paddle wheel on one end that creates a water current to swim against. The model they are looking at has a 7.5 hp motor that turns the wheel. Article 680 doesn't seem to require any thing above 20 amps 250 volt be gfi protected. I know finding a gfi breaker for this would be tough, just wondering if i missed something in 680 and why would they stop at 20 amps 250 volt
 
eds said:
I have a client that is in the processs of building a new home. In the basement of this home there are plans to install a swim ex , this is a pool that has a paddle wheel on one end that creates a water current to swim against. The model they are looking at has a 7.5 hp motor that turns the wheel. Article 680 doesn't seem to require any thing above 20 amps 250 volt be gfi protected. I know finding a gfi breaker for this would be tough, just wondering if i missed something in 680 and why would they stop at 20 amps 250 volt
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Pool pumps don't always need GFI's-- read Article 680.22 (5)--- only if it is cord and plug and not more than 20 amp 240 volt single phase, does a pool pump need GFI protection. I believe that the Gfi is required in case someone decides to use the recep. for something else. Over 20 amp it is unlikely anyone would plug into it. Who knows-- they could just say use a twist lock and your okay but they don't
 
I think the FLA on that is like...what 40 Amps....anyway you would be fine unless someone came along and said it was a hot tub or a spa versus a pool or something...like if it had a dual use with a heater load....then it would need to be GFCI protected.

The requirements of 680.44 specify that field-assembled spas and hot tubs with heater
loads of 50 amperes or less are to be GFCI protected. Spas and hot tubs utilizing
voltages over 250 volts or 3-phase power are not required to have GFCI protection
because GFCI devices are not available in all voltage, amperage, and phasing
arrangements. Combination spa-pool or hot tub?pool arrangements are not required to
have GFCI protection if they share a common bonding grid.

So no heater ( brrrrrrr.....brrrrrrrr ) and so on then no worries. Personally I have never seen one of these pools but then again I swim like a ROCK.
 
radiopet said:
Personally I have never seen one of these pools but then again I swim like a ROCK.
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These are sometimes called endless pools because they can less than 15' or so and you can set the current so that you can't ever get to the other side.
indexpic2.jpg
 
eds said:
I know finding a gfi breaker for this would be tough, just wondering if i missed something in 680 and why would they stop at 20 amps 250 volt
Click to expand...

Finding a breaker should be easy, should you wish to use a GFCI breaker. A double pole 50A GFCI is the most common thing you'll find in a spa panel (just buy one that is the same brand as the panel feeding the pool equipment). You could either feed the pool panel with this 50A breaker and run everything, or just the motor. This motor sounds large enough that you may need a 50A breaker minimum. You'd have to try it to see if the motor inrush trips a 50A breaker.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
These are sometimes called endless pools because they can less than 15' or so and you can set the current so that you can't ever get to the other side.
indexpic2.jpg
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Those heat/cool registers look AWESOME half in the tile and sheetrock... another well planned job!
 
People and their energy eaters.
I don't know about you, but I'd find it really frustrating if I couldn't get to the other side no matter how hard I tried.
Just my opinion
steve
 
eds said:
I have a client that is in the processs of building a new home. In the basement of this home there are plans to install a swim ex , this is a pool that has a paddle wheel on one end that creates a water current to swim against. The model they are looking at has a 7.5 hp motor that turns the wheel. Article 680 doesn't seem to require any thing above 20 amps 250 volt be gfi protected. I know finding a gfi breaker for this would be tough, just wondering if i missed something in 680 and why would they stop at 20 amps 250 volt
Click to expand...
For me this is an easy fix. If I were doing this installation or if this pool was in my house I would install GFCI protection. I install GFCI protection on all my pool pumps, etc...but this is just me, I don't like to take any chances with life safety. True 680.22 (A) (5) states that GFCI protection is not required if you use a recepticle and/or the motor is rated at 15 or 20 amperes (yours is greater than this) and/or the plug is more than 20 feet from the inside walls of the pool. Any Home Depot or Lowes carries GFCI breakers.
Besides, if someone is willing to pay thousands of dollars for a pool like this, why not get an extra couple hundred bucks out of him for a GFCI breaker or Pool/Spa disconnect kit which comes with a GFCI breaker?
When I do an installation of this type, I tell the customer they "NEED GFCI protection against the risk of electrocution" (a little white lie...sort of). Then a little more money is a non issue.
 
bstoin said:
I install GFCI protection on all my pool pumps, etc...but this is just me, I don't like to take any chances with life safety. .
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Do you think that if this were a life safety issue the NEC would allow pool pump to NOT be on GFCI.

bstoin said:
why not get an extra couple hundred bucks out of him for a GFCI breaker or Pool/Spa disconnect kit which comes with a GFCI breaker?
When I do an installation of this type, I tell the customer they "NEED GFCI protection against the risk of electrocution" (a little white lie...sort of). Then a little more money is a non issue.
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It is one thing to suggest a GFI because you believe it is a safer issue but to lie about it is dishonest. The little more money is NOT yours to decide if it is a non issue or not. I suggest you tell them the truth and let them decide. I believe it is not in the code because it is not a safety issue. The reason it is there for cord and plug is because someone else may use ithe receptacle for a drill, radio, etc.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Do you think that if this were a life safety issue the NEC would allow pool pump to NOT be on GFCI.


It is one thing to suggest a GFI because you believe it is a safer issue but to lie about it is dishonest. The little more money is NOT yours to decide if it is a non issue or not. I suggest you tell them the truth and let them decide. I believe it is not in the code because it is not a safety issue. The reason it is there for cord and plug is because someone else may use ithe receptacle for a drill, radio, etc.
Click to expand...
shame on me
 
the largest gfi breaker that I have purchased is a 60 amp 2 pole, this breaker will not be large enough for a 7.5 hp motor. I also believe that this unit goes through a vfd to control the speed of the paddle wheel (not sure about this have not seen the spec sheet) if in fact their is a vfd would this effect the gfi breaker. Some one posted that they hooked up one of these and put it on a gfi could you tell me what size motor it was
 
Per Table 430.248, a 7.5-hp 230V, 1-phase motor has an FLC of 40A. Size the branch-circuit conductors no less than 125% of FLC: 40A?1.25 = 50A.

Size the branch-circuit short-circuit and ground-fault protection device per 240.6(A) and 430.52 For an inverse-time breaker: 40A?2.5=100A

Now that's a big motor if you are talkin about 1-phase and 230V

I could be wrong on that....I am sure someone will tell me as I am not familiar with those ex. swiming pools.
 
Years back while doing plan review as an inspector an issue came up about these "pools" and indoor receptacle placement. At that time I went back to UL with the UL number and was told that even though these "pools" are sold and advertised as pools they are not pools. UL listed them as hot tubs and spas. The thinking at UL was that this was closer to thier function. As such an installation would require GFI protection. Check your installation instructions it should tell you there.
 
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