I have a friend who buried a #4urd 3 wire from his 400 amp servivice at the house to a small out building. From there he is feeding a pool and all it's acceceries. He has GFCI breakers on everything. There are no electrical,gas or water pipes going back to the main house. He also put a gnd rod down at the pool house. At the pool panel, the bonding screw is not installed. They are expieriacing some tingling or shock at the pool. Any ideas where I might start trouble shooting for him? Thanks Tim
swimming pool
- Thread starter tim
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Re: swimming pool
Tim, you are justified in your concern. I don't know how much we can help with out some very discriptive information on the installation.
I will say you should talk, or even better, force, your friend to have this inspected even at the risk of being in trouble if he went around permitting.
It will be better to laugh with your friend at his being in trouble later, then it will be to remember the family that died in their pool.
Roger
Tim, you are justified in your concern. I don't know how much we can help with out some very discriptive information on the installation.
I will say you should talk, or even better, force, your friend to have this inspected even at the risk of being in trouble if he went around permitting.
It will be better to laugh with your friend at his being in trouble later, then it will be to remember the family that died in their pool.
Roger
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: swimming pool
Tim,
If the pool panel is 120/240 and only fed with 3 conductors, the bonding screw must installed at the pool panel. Just for curiosity sake, before you put the bond screw in, check the voltage from the grounded conductor and the grounding conductors at the pool panel.
Exactly what are they in contact with when they feel the shock? Are all of the metallic parts of the pool bonded as required in Article 680?
Don
Tim,
If the pool panel is 120/240 and only fed with 3 conductors, the bonding screw must installed at the pool panel. Just for curiosity sake, before you put the bond screw in, check the voltage from the grounded conductor and the grounding conductors at the pool panel.
Exactly what are they in contact with when they feel the shock? Are all of the metallic parts of the pool bonded as required in Article 680?
Don
lazorko
Member
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- Philadelphia
Re: swimming pool
Does "tingling" stop when the new cable is disconnected at source? Currents could originate from a source other than the suspected pool service - even from a neighboring property. Pool bonding is intended reduce voltage gradients in and around a pool area, and should be installed.
Is cable a permitted pool wiring method? I thought conduit was the only means recognized for pool wiring once it exits the interior spaces of a residential dwelling (with insulated grounding conductor run with the current-carrying conductors).
Does "tingling" stop when the new cable is disconnected at source? Currents could originate from a source other than the suspected pool service - even from a neighboring property. Pool bonding is intended reduce voltage gradients in and around a pool area, and should be installed.
Is cable a permitted pool wiring method? I thought conduit was the only means recognized for pool wiring once it exits the interior spaces of a residential dwelling (with insulated grounding conductor run with the current-carrying conductors).
Re: swimming pool
Very serious situation indeed, all who responded to Tim's post make very good points. The lack of bonding could be causing some back feed on the nuetral wire and finding its way to any ungrounded metal parts and the water itself, Art. 680.25 Feeders and Art.680.21 (A)Wiring methods (1) General. puts this installation in violation of the NEC. but definitly check the grounding Tim.
[ June 09, 2003, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: jro ]
Very serious situation indeed, all who responded to Tim's post make very good points. The lack of bonding could be causing some back feed on the nuetral wire and finding its way to any ungrounded metal parts and the water itself, Art. 680.25 Feeders and Art.680.21 (A)Wiring methods (1) General. puts this installation in violation of the NEC. but definitly check the grounding Tim.
[ June 09, 2003, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: jro ]
lazorko
Member
- Location
- Philadelphia
Re: swimming pool
Just another note about the importance of bonding from an actual case history:
Several swimmers were electocuted in a pool; investigation discovered that the source of the current was wiring located at the top of the stone wall enclosing the pool area. A light fixture was apparently disconnected many years prior to the incident, but the wiring was left energized. Grounds maintenance had recently watered shrubs planted between the wall and pool area, inadvertantly soaking the wiring box (which was not visible from ground level), the stone wall,shrubs, and grass border. The wet surfaces created a sufficient current path from the energized wiring through the pool. The pool was probably constructed before bonding requirements were written; the tragedy would have occured even if the branches feeding the pool equipment were installed according to today?s requirements.
Bonding would have provided a low impedance path for the current and would have eliminated the possibility of voltage gradients through the pool water and surrounding surfaces. Obviously, code today would have required either greater separation of the light from the pool or bonding of the light to the pool system and GFCI branch circuit protection. When a pool is added to a location previously used as ordinary outdoor space, we have to reconsider all electrical elements in its vicinity as potential sources of hazardous current and bring them into compliance, too.
Just another note about the importance of bonding from an actual case history:
Several swimmers were electocuted in a pool; investigation discovered that the source of the current was wiring located at the top of the stone wall enclosing the pool area. A light fixture was apparently disconnected many years prior to the incident, but the wiring was left energized. Grounds maintenance had recently watered shrubs planted between the wall and pool area, inadvertantly soaking the wiring box (which was not visible from ground level), the stone wall,shrubs, and grass border. The wet surfaces created a sufficient current path from the energized wiring through the pool. The pool was probably constructed before bonding requirements were written; the tragedy would have occured even if the branches feeding the pool equipment were installed according to today?s requirements.
Bonding would have provided a low impedance path for the current and would have eliminated the possibility of voltage gradients through the pool water and surrounding surfaces. Obviously, code today would have required either greater separation of the light from the pool or bonding of the light to the pool system and GFCI branch circuit protection. When a pool is added to a location previously used as ordinary outdoor space, we have to reconsider all electrical elements in its vicinity as potential sources of hazardous current and bring them into compliance, too.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: swimming pool
JRO
JRO
I dont beleave you said that. Any gfci whether a breaker or receptacle does not need a ground to work as long as they are wired correctly.I.E. the grounding conductor connected to the neutral terminal on a gfci breaker would allow full current to the grounding of the device that is hooked up to the breaker. but with out the bond from the neutral to the grounding buss any fault not on a gfci would impose the line voltage to all the grounding. (like a short circuit in the breaker panel) this would mean that all of the grounding and bonding would have 120 volts between earth and the pool metal.
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