Switchgear Room Egress

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ASG

Senior Member
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Work in NYC
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Electrical Engineer, PE
We went to a site where the incoming service was in like a sunken pit area of the basement. There was one way out (there was double the clearance) but that one way included going up a ship ladder to get to the exit doors. We are discussing replacing the gear so we are trying to figure out if this arrangement is breaking any codes. IMO, considering the idea of having panic doors, etc. at the egress is suggesting that the intent of the code doesn't really like this setup but I can't seem to find anything it is specifically violating.

Thoughts?
 
I don't really know if you're going to find what you're looking for. I would think that the reason for the panic hardware (hand injuries) would be enough to negate a ladder as a means of egress. But I also don't have an answer for you other than to tell you to speak to the local AHJ. I would probably have to search for an answer to this one too if it were in my jurisdiction.
 
Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.

By the use of the term portable ladders , ladders fixed in place do not seem to impose a ready access problem
 
Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.

By the use of the term portable ladders , ladders fixed in place do not seem to impose a ready access problem
And that makes sense with "readily accessible" being most concerned with access, not with escape.

Exit clearances, egress door hardware, etc. do not have much to do with "readily accessible."
 
And that makes sense with "readily accessible" being most concerned with access, not with escape.

Exit clearances, egress door hardware, etc. do not have much to do with "readily accessible."

yes, however if you are allowed to access service equipment using a latter how would you leave the area. What about installations accessible from a roof?
 
yes, however if you are allowed to access service equipment using a latter how would you leave the area. What about installations accessible from a roof?
You could fall, I suppose. :)

That is why the OP raised the whole question of whether additional space outside the limits of the required working space might be necessary to meet the intent if not the letter of the code.

When someone says that access requires a ladder, our first thought is that you climb up to the equipment. Unfortunately, the other possibility (climbing down) also exists and that has very different implications for egress.
You could consider the area down the ladder to be closest to a manhole or underground vault and look for possible guidance in the requirements for those. :)
You may find that OSHA discusses those even if the NEC does not.
 
= = = )

ASG,

What is the distance from the Exit Door to the nearest piece of equipment
in your application [ RE: Article 110.33(A)(3), `08 NEC ] ?

Also, if there is a question of a known or suspected hazard, contact the
AHJ BO [
RE: `12 IBC, Section 3401.5 - Dangerous conditions
:
"The building official shall have the authority to require the elimination
of conditions deemed dangerous."
]

( = = =
 

The OP is a discussion about leaving a "working space" not egress from a "confined space".
As Charlie points out, these are two different topics.
 
There is a similar discussion underway (note the side joke - ship's ladder - underway - :roll: OK I'll keep my day job) here:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=161603

My take is that the NEC only cares that you can make your way out of the working clearance space. Getting out of the room is not an NEC consideration.
It appears to me that they want you to be able to get at least 25' from the working space based on the requirement of listed panic hardware on all doors within 25' of the working space.
 
It appears to me that they want you to be able to get at least 25' from the working space based on the requirement of listed panic hardware on all doors within 25' of the working space.

I have an electrical room that is roughly 21 ft by 44 ft. All of the >1200A gear is mounted along one of the 44' walls, its front is roughly 7ft into the room. Allowing 4 ft for some future panels to be mounted across from this gear, we have a working space of about 11 ft in front of all equipment. The single doorway (double wide with panic hardware on one door) to the room is located opposite the large gear and is 1 ft from the corner of the room. There is a 3" curb, across this doorway. The equipment doorway leads into a 25' deep air handling/mechanical room which has one 36"w exit door with standard knob style hardware and a curb with up and down ramps. This door opens into a 36" by 16' long hallway which has a door (standard knob) into the main hallway of the building.

So Don, do you see any problems?
 
We went to a site where the incoming service was in like a sunken pit area of the basement. There was one way out (there was double the clearance) but that one way included going up a ship ladder to get to the exit doors. We are discussing replacing the gear so we are trying to figure out if this arrangement is breaking any codes. IMO, considering the idea of having panic doors, etc. at the egress is suggesting that the intent of the code doesn't really like this setup but I can't seem to find anything it is specifically violating.

Thoughts?

I see you work in NYC, so I'm assuming this is where the job in reference is. My advice to you is to speak to someone at the Advisory Board ASAP, or send in one of these forms to the NYC Code Interpretation Committee (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/pdf/ed76.pdf). We just finished a job where we replaced some switchgear. Some of it was the old knife switch style gear, as well as Federal Pacific which are known to have issues. The existing room conditions, clearances, etc. were horrendous and we really did a nice job cleaning up the room. However, we had to go through 3 or 4 sets of comments from different Advisory Board members to get the job approved. They don't seem to care about "existing conditions" and expect you to be able to fixed every code violation even if you're not hired to do so. :roll:

Contact them ASAP and try and feel them out, it will save you headaches later on.
 
I have an electrical room that is roughly 21 ft by 44 ft. All of the >1200A gear is mounted along one of the 44' walls, its front is roughly 7ft into the room. Allowing 4 ft for some future panels to be mounted across from this gear, we have a working space of about 11 ft in front of all equipment. The single doorway (double wide with panic hardware on one door) to the room is located opposite the large gear and is 1 ft from the corner of the room. There is a 3" curb, across this doorway. The equipment doorway leads into a 25' deep air handling/mechanical room which has one 36"w exit door with standard knob style hardware and a curb with up and down ramps. This door opens into a 36" by 16' long hallway which has a door (standard knob) into the main hallway of the building.

So Don, do you see any problems?

It looks like you are more than 25' from the nearest edge of the work space before you get to the second door, so that would meet the rule. Note that the panic hardware rule applies to 800 amps and greater under the 2011 code.
 
It looks like you are more than 25' from the nearest edge of the work space before you get to the second door, so that would meet the rule.
The second door is irrelevant. It is not a method of egress from the working space, but rather a method of egress from the adjacent mechanical room.
Note that the panic hardware rule applies to 800 amps and greater under the 2011 code.
I think you meant 2014, but I haven't bought my copy yet and can't verify it.

 
It appears to me that they want you to be able to get at least 25' from the working space based on the requirement of listed panic hardware on all doors within 25' of the working space.
The wording of that change has always bothered me. What does "egress" mean anyway? If we are talking about a door that is 25 feet from the nearest edge of the working space, haven't you already egressed from the working space long before you reach that door? It makes no sense to me.
 
The wording of that change has always bothered me. What does "egress" mean anyway? If we are talking about a door that is 25 feet from the nearest edge of the working space, haven't you already egressed from the working space long before you reach that door? It makes no sense to me.

We have a similar problem with using egress terminology when it comes to one and two family dwellings. NFPA 70 says entrance and exit doors when applying the need to have a lighting outlet at these doors. But we have an NFPA document IRC part VIII that change the terminology to egress doors.
When you do that, only the doors that are required egress are required lighting outlets.

So changing the terminology from entry and exit to egress makes a difference.

The term required egress is a term that can be defined . The term egress muddies the water.
 
The wording of that change has always bothered me. What does "egress" mean anyway? If we are talking about a door that is 25 feet from the nearest edge of the working space, haven't you already egressed from the working space long before you reach that door? It makes no sense to me.

And if panic hardware is required why is a tripping hazard like a curb allowed?

As I read the new section 110.26(C)(3) it says, "doors intended for entrance to and egress from the working space", so it is possible that given the fact that you cannot enter the electrical room without going through the mechanical, might not the entrance to the mechanical room also need to be equipped with panic hardware? I see nothing that says the 25' distance stops at the first door or wall.
 
+ ( ) +

From the `12 IBC, Ch. 2 - Definitions, Section 201.4 - Terms not defined:
"Where terms are not defined through the methods authorized by this section, such
terms shall have ordinarily accepted meanings such as the context implies.".......The
term Egress; according to the IBC, has 3 components, and is usually referred to as
the Means of Egress [ MOE ]..............The term "Egress" by itself is not defined in
the codes.

The dictionary definition of Egress is:
noun
1. the act or an instance of going, especially from an enclosed place.
2. a means or place of going out; an exit.
3. the right or permission to go out.
4. Astronomy , emersion ( def 1 ) . verb (used without object)
5. to go out; emerge.

+ ( ) +
 
In terms of other fire codes, safe egress has not been completed until you are away from the building either to a public right of way or a safe assembly area.

Tapatalk!
 
And if panic hardware is required why is a tripping hazard like a curb allowed?
I knew you were on a fishing expedition with that part of your scenario. :happyyes: My response is that you had to step over it in order to get in front of the equipment, so I am willing to presume you will remember to step over it on your way out of the room.
As I read the new section 110.26(C)(3) it says, "doors intended for entrance to and egress from the working space", so it is possible that given the fact that you cannot enter the electrical room without going through the mechanical, might not the entrance to the mechanical room also need to be equipped with panic hardware? I see nothing that says the 25' distance stops at the first door or wall.
The working space stopped no more than 4 feet from the front of the equipment. The words have always been about exiting or egressing from the working space, not exiting or egressing from the room in which the working space is located. That second door is part of the egress path from the room to the outside world. But that is a building code or fire code issue, not an electrical code issue.

I don't think it is logically possible for an egress from the working space to be a door that is 25 feet away from the working space. If the CMP intends the section to be speaking of leaving the room in which the equipment is located, then the present wording does not convey that intent. :happysad:

 
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