Sylvania Electrical Panel

[Estee80]

I am evaluating a Sylvania electrical Panel SB10(12-20)C for some home sellers, that got told by an inspector that it’s a potential fire hazard. From what intel I gathered from the web, Zinsco-Sylvania had the issue of aluminum bus bars and.. breakers that would not trip. This panel does not carry the bladed through busses but your standard clip on buss. From what I can see there is no sign of arcing or discoloration on either breakers, busses or wiring (Cu) branch circuits. Is there a recall list somewhere or tech support number to find out is this particular model is recalled or a potential hazard? This home was built in 1985 the load center looks pretty clean and safe.. but they want a letter stating so, to give to their inspection agency.

Thank you in advance.

 

[kwired]

No way they are getting any letter from me stating it is safe. Maybe letter stating any code issues I happen to fine but nothing stating it is totally safe. Something may happen the next day then guess who they are taking to court with that letter as part of their evidence? I may or may not win in court but certainly don't need to provide them with such fuel for their side of things.

I might mention this panel is obsolete, possibly questionable safety or performance might be a factor in why it is obsolete and that it may be difficult to get insurance as long as it is there.

 

[curt swartz]

That loadcenter is not the original Zinsco design, it uses type C and A breakers. The same basic breakers as the current Eaton BR line.

As long as the bussing is in good condition there is no hazard or reason to change the loadcenter itself.

If there are currently 1/2" thin/twin breakers installed they have been know to have failures where they plug on to the buss. The 1/2" breaker was a cool idea for being able to make what ever combination for breakers needed in the field. The issue was since the side clip was exposed it could easily get bent from handling between when it was manufactured and finally installed.

I would tell the insurance company that the loadcenter is fine and just replace all the breakers with new Eaton breakers.

 

[jaggedben]

What curt said.

I keep repeating this ad naseum whenever it comes up on this forum, but people really need to pay attention to breaker types not brands.

I recommend replacing type A breakers, the ones Curt refers to as the 1/2 size, and checking the busbar for damage. If there are no type A breakers and/or no busbar damage, then there should be no notable hazard with this panel.

 

[LarryFine]

I keep repeating this ad naseum whenever it comes up on this forum, but people really need to pay attention to breaker types not brands.

Hear! Hear! You'n'me both, brother.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Commonly referred to as a Challenger panel in these parts.

 

[mtnelect]

For liability insurance reasons ... if it is an "Old Style" panel (20 years or older) I always recommend a change out.

 

[jaggedben]

For liability insurance reasons ... if it is an "Old Style" panel (20 years or older) I always recommend a change out.

That makes little sense. Panel styles have changed little to none in 40 years. As discussed above, the aforementioned Sylvania panel (circa 1980) is basically the same in its essential features as new Eaton BR panels being sold today. For that matter, the general 'style' is substantially the same as the Siemens and Square-D (Homeline) competitors (and, although a little less so, GE). At this point if you're going to recommend that 20 year old panels be replaced you need a better reason than their being 'old style', because they won't be. But I don't think there's any strong bonafide argument these days that 20 year old panels need replacement merely based on their age.

 

[mtnelect]

The newer panels are larger among other requirements of NEC 312.6

 

[jaggedben]

The newer panels are larger among other requirements of NEC 312.6

Those changes also go back about 40 years.
Your 20-year advice would have been decent in 2004! Now it's overkill.

 

[norcal]

That makes little sense. Panel styles have changed little to none in 40 years. As discussed above, the aforementioned Sylvania panel (circa 1980) is basically the same in its essential features as new Eaton BR panels being sold today. For that matter, the general 'style' is substantially the same as the Siemens and Square-D (Homeline) competitors (and, although a little less so, GE). At this point if you're going to recommend that 20 year old panels be replaced you need a better reason than their being 'old style', because they won't be. But I don't think there's any strong bonafide argument these days that 20 year old panels need replacement merely based on their age.

That heritage is one reason I call Eaton BR "Zinsco II" something had to take the place of Zinsco when they left the market.

 

[jaggedben]

That heritage is one reason I call Eaton BR "Zinsco II" something had to take the place of Zinsco when they left the market.

Yeah I don't buy that story. The present day BR is Bryant. Which predates the end of Zinsco. And doesn't deserve the comparison.

 

[norcal]

Yeah I don't buy that story. The present day BR is Bryant. Which predates the end of Zinsco. And doesn't deserve the comparison.

They used Zinsco main breakers, (150-225A), Westinghouse adopted the Challenger panels which in my opinion was a improvement over the Bryant design, & Challenger was a Zinsco successor, but I have hated Bryant breakers since around 1980, These days, any makes other then Eaton BR, & GE, is fine with me.

 

[Birken Vogt]

I changed one of those 200 amp Challengers all-in-one with the Zinsco main at the top, used an Eaton panel, the can and all the fittings were exactly the same location/position, the only thing different was the main breaker itself. So they have basically kept the same blueprint all these years. Still I think the Eaton stuff is fine, I see no difference to the Siemens.

 

[jaggedben]

They used Zinsco main breakers, (150-225A),

Which of course were totally different from the branch breakers, don't have known issues, and have long since been replaced by the BW and CSR types.

Westinghouse adopted the Challenger panels which in my opinion was a improvement over the Bryant design, & Challenger was a Zinsco successor, but I have hated Bryant breakers since around 1980, These days, any makes other then Eaton BR, & GE, is fine with me.

I agree with Birken, I don't know what important difference you see. I've seen about the same number of issues with Siemens/Murray as with BR. I've actually not seen issues that I can recall with Homeline or GE, but I put that down to seeing less of them. FWIW I've never actually discovered issues in FPE or Zinsco panels either.

I changed one of those 200 amp Challengers all-in-one with the Zinsco main at the top, used an Eaton panel, the can and all the fittings were exactly the same location/position, the only thing different was the main breaker itself. So they have basically kept the same blueprint all these years. Still I think the Eaton stuff is fine, I see no difference to the Siemens.

Yeah some cans are still the same as Challenger but the branch breakers are Bryant. I'm less sure about the bussing but I think that's basically Challenger, or newer.
The 200A meter/mains in the Cutler-Hammer branded era had some serious weaknesses in the line side meter socket bussing that made them prone to corrosion. But Eaton has since changed the design to fix that.

 

[curt swartz]

They used Zinsco main breakers, (150-225A), Westinghouse adopted the Challenger panels which in my opinion was a improvement over the Bryant design, & Challenger was a Zinsco successor, but I have hated Bryant breakers since around 1980, These days, any makes other then Eaton BR, & GE, is fine with me.

I have never seen a Bryant panel with a Zinsco main. The 150-200 have been BJ breakers. Zinsco had no connection to Bryant until Westinghouse purchased Challenger. I guess it possible they started using Zinsco mains for a short time but if so that didn't last long.

 

[jaggedben]

I have never seen a Bryant panel with a Zinsco main. The 150-200 have been BJ breakers. Zinsco had no connection to Bryant until Westinghouse purchased Challenger. I guess it possible they started using Zinsco mains for a short time but if so that didn't last long.

It was Challenger that used Zinsco mains.
I believe that was before they were acquired by Westinghouse, but possibly also after.

 

[mtnelect]

It was Challenger that used Zinsco mains.
I believe that was before they were acquired by Westinghouse, but possibly also after.

They are all "Junk" and should be replaced and it would lower your insurance premium(s).

 

[curt swartz]

They are all "Junk" and should be replaced and it would lower your insurance premium(s).

Who are they?

 

[mtnelect]

Who are they?

Let's start with "Zinsco" ... I remember seeing "Zinsco" buss-bar replacements being offered at electrical wholesale houses many years ago, but never bought one. I have replaced several panels in the past with the clips burned.