T-8 Flourscent to LED

[John120/240]

Never done one before now. Retro-fit a 4 lamp 4ft T-8 fluorescent fixture to 4 lamp 4ft LED tubes. What all is required ? Remove the ballast, Yes. Don't these LED's require a driver ? Or is the driver self contained in the lamp ? Thank You in advance John

 

[Electric-Light]

Never done one before now. Retro-fit a 4 lamp 4ft T-8 fluorescent fixture to 4 lamp 4ft LED tubes. What all is required ? Remove the ballast, Yes. Don't these LED's require a driver ? Or is the driver self contained in the lamp ? Thank You in advance John

3 kinds
1
Made to work with some T8 fluorescent ballast. Gnerally, these require ballasts with 48" 25W lamp compatibility. They're generally rated on 0.88x ballast which is the most common one. They may not operate on dimmable or programmed start ballast.

2
Requires proprietary LED ballast

3
Built in ballast like CFLs

 

[iwire]

Never done one before now. Retro-fit a 4 lamp 4ft T-8 fluorescent fixture to 4 lamp 4ft LED tubes. What all is required ? Remove the ballast, Yes. Don't these LED's require a driver ? Or is the driver self contained in the lamp ? Thank You in advance John

Been doing tons of this for the past few years, do you know exactly what product you are using?

There are LED retrofit 'tubes' that fit in the exsiting lamp holders that supply line voltage to the tube because you splice the ballast out of it.

 

[ActionDave]

I haven't done many but I do know you need to check and see if the LED is compatible with the shunted tombstones (did I say that right?) in the old T8's

 

[Electric-Light]

.

 

[hbendillo]

I haven't used these anywhere yet but I hope the customer isn't expecting to get the same light levels.

 

[Electric-Light]

but why, still extremely expensive

but why, still extremely expensive

Ballast bypass lamps are becoming less common. They are the most troublesome in compatibility, performance and safety. Different brand lamps wire up differently. I believe these are popular with Energy Retrofit Sales so that there's an appearance of doing more than just "changing out bulbs".

http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/lighting/about us/SafetyNotices/T8-LED-Tubes.pdf

Flicker is a likely issue with "direct to line" type lamps that is likely to have inferior performance internal ballast. http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED Components and Modules/XLamp/White Papers/Flicker.pdf

The other options are externally ballasted LED lamps. Some use proprietary LED ballast, some use fluorescent instant start ballast.

There are substantial spec differences between tube LEDs. Some matching T8, some worse than T8, some exceeding T8. The only universal statement is that they're all more expensive than the best T8 available.

Existing fixture with SYLVANIA QHE4X32T8/UNV ISN-SC ballast:
9150(8415 mean) lumen per 108W with 2600 lm RE70 lamps (obsolete lamp introduced in 80s for reference only)

Baseline:
8710 (8190 mean) per 85W FO25/SS RE80
LED match with expensive 120+ lm/W lamp:
8500 LM per 69.5W with LED15T8/L48, latest model of LED lamp.
18.2% less watts
2.5% less light/good enough match.
16.2% less power used per lumen.

1.55kW saved per 100 fixtures (400 lamps)
I would guess the saving is maybe $130/month 20hrs/day and $10/kW demand.
but at $10,000 more spent on lamps compared to $5/T8 lamps.
It takes 6 1/2 years to break even with "simple pay back".


Where maximum light is needed:
10560 (9925 mean) LM per 108W with super T8 3000 lm lamps:
QHE4X32T8/UNV ISH ballast with LED15T8/L48
11000 lm per 91W.
15% less watts
Light +4%.
Power consumed per lumen: 19% less

These figures are using the top of the line lamps that was just introduced.
Sylvania LED15T8/L48. You're probably going to pay over $30 a lamp for these too. Per their own data, you can only get about 20% reduction compared to the cutting edge T8 lamps. I am comparing SYSTEM watts. Not lamp watts. LEDs are only making the wattage reduction level expected by Energy Retrofit Sales companies by cutting light output.

These lamps are generally only compatible with 120-277v rated ballasts.

http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/Documents/LED465.d4a378b6-879b-4ff9-b2a0-0a89b472b554.pdf

 

[Sierrasparky]

What is the listing when you do this.
Is there any violation if you use line voltage lamps as the fixture is not listed for this.

 

[iwire]

What is the listing when you do this.
Is there any violation if you use line voltage lamps as the fixture is not listed for this.

If you use a listed retofit kit it will come with a sticker with the listing and required updated info.

 

[Sierrasparky]

If you use a listed retofit kit it will come with a sticker with the listing and required updated info.

So kit is the way to go, just don't get lamps and put them in.

 

[iwire]

So kit is the way to go, just don't get lamps and put them in.

Personally I hate the line voltage self contained lamps, I agree with Electric-light they are the worst of the possible options.

And like you I am curious what happens if you stuff regular lamps back into them.

I prefer when we are hired to change out the entire fixture, the results look better.

 

[John120/240]

This Phillips product is what was purchased.....http://www.lighting.philips.com/mai...-and-systems/led-tubes/led-t8-instantfit-lamp
It has turned into more than I was led to believe. Thank You Very helpful information.

 

[Electric-Light]

Personally I hate the line voltage self contained lamps, I agree with Electric-light they are the worst of the possible options.

And like you I am curious what happens if you stuff regular lamps back into them.
I prefer when we are hired to change out the entire fixture, the results look better.

If it's across two ends, it probably won't do anything since 277v isn't enough to reliably instant start a T8. A surge or static can strike the arc and... the let through current until the breaker clears the fault is significant and the lamp may explode. If the line voltage is across on one end, it will instant short out when power is applied.

I am not sure if having 20kA of fault current made available right to the lamp sockets is legal.

If the LED can be made to provide the same efficacy on fluorescent ballast as it can with a proprietary LED ballast, I think its better to stay with the T8 ballast.

8500 lm four LED15T8/L48 using 69.5W will probably replace two 110W F96T12/HO in signs and gas station lighting in Minnesota only because even 110W HO lamps struggle in sub-zero temperatures and only put out about half the output. In this application, $35/lamp is worth it, because you definitely can not use regular T8 lamps at this temperature.
LEDs do have places they can do fantastic and they're successful for cold display cases.

For indoor lighting where $5/lamp 48" T8 25W lamps work well, spending $35/lamp LED to get 8500 lm for 70W instead of 8710 (8190 mean) per 85W with 25W 48" lamps is silly.

 

[sw_ross]

Feit Electric - Plug and Play tubes from Costco

Feit Electric - Plug and Play tubes from Costco

I just bought 4 lamps (2 pkgs of 2 lamps - $30/ pkg -$60 total) to try out the retrofit option in my own house and see what I can learn about this concept.

What I learned - my existing fixture was pulling 1.2 amps of current with the existing T8's, I put in the new plug and play LED tubes, when I turned them on it flashed bright, then went to a dim light output, I would guess maybe 25% of full brightness. The fixture was pulling 0.1 amps at this point. Not enough light output for a kitchen!

I looked on the Feit Electric website to see if I could do anything different- no help there!

Anybody have any suggestions, other than taking them back to Costco!?

Thanks