Tankless water heater

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bassphisher

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I inspected a house yesterday that a homeowner is wiring himself(this all ways makes things very interesting)
In the basement he has a room that is a combination laundry bathroom.There is no door that separates the laundry equipment from the bathroom area.There is a closet in this room that he wants to install a tank less water heater.The electrical requirements for this water heater are 3-40amp 240v breakers.So here are my questions.
1)Does he need to install 3 separate lockable disconnects to make this code compliant?Interlocking?Marking?You can't see the panel from the water heater location.
2)The 120v outlet for the washer has to be gfci because it is in the bathroom.Are their any requirements for the 240v outlet for the dryer?
3)Are their any GFCI requirements for the tank less water heater?Remember its in a closet in the bathroom.
:( Thanks Paul

[ December 13, 2005, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: bassphisher ]
 
Re: Tankless water heater

Paul:
(a) interesting question. my research did not give me a definitive answer, perhaps someone else has one. IMHO, jb has the answer. Identify each lockable disconnect and sticker the heater "fed from mutliple sources"
(b) and (c) 120 volt outlets only
 
Re: Tankless water heater

Another "old wives tale"?

Other than for equipment with motors, 430 and other loaction like 422.32 and 440.14, where is there any code requirement for a disconnect to be "within site" of the equipment it feeds or for that matter to be lockable?

Not for panels, 408.36
Not for transformers, 450
Not for most appliances, 422.30
Not for heating equipment, 424.19, 427.55
 
Re: Tankless water heater

how about 422.31B over 300 VA OR 1/8 Hp
 
Re: Tankless water heater

Originally posted by augie47:
how about 422.31B over 300 VA OR 1/8 Hp
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Can you define a "permanently connected appliance"?

I have been in the trades for several years and have learned there is no such thing as permanent. I looked to see what the code's definition of permanent is, and there is nothing. I looked at dictionary.com and couldn't find anything definitive as to what could or would be considered permanent in relation to an appliance.
 
Re: Tankless water heater

I have hooked up 4 tankless water heaters in the past 2 years. Three of them require as you mention, I didn't have to worry about disconnects because they were only twelve feet away from the panels. My electrical inspector did require that I label on the water heater the circuit numbers of all three of the two pole breakers.
 
Re: Tankless water heater

We are all aware of the power requirements of these heaters and they are great, but IMHO I would suggest explaining this to the DIYer. They may wonder why the whole house sags suddenly or the neighbors house sags depending on how the POCO did the service. Nice heaters when the power is avail but more than a few homes dont have services that tollerate a sudden 90 amp draw in addition to the rest of the house.
 
Re: Tankless water heater

The last 1 i did had 3 8 kw heat strips.I would demand to see his load calculations for this house.He can use breaker lockouts.He most likely has no idea what he is asking for.The one i did flashed the lights so bad that we unhooked 1 of them.That helped in reducing the on off on off every few seconds.But they did get plenty of hot water in shower.
 
Re: Tankless water heater

augie,
Good point, I was thinking of the phrase "over 1/8HP" and skipped the part "...300VA OR".
 
Re: Tankless water heater

6 poles? (3x240v)
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Yes 6 poles.
I read thru the installation manual,and they are not very much help.Just said that the building that it is installed in has to have a 200A service.This house does have a new 200 amp service.Just in case someone wants to know it is a power star AE 125 and you can view it here. http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/HeatingProducts/WaterHeating/powerstar/powerstarspecs.htm
No one really addressed the issue of this being installed in a bathroom closet,or the 240v outlet for the dryer in the bathroom.Any code violation here?

[ December 14, 2005, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: bassphisher ]
 
Re: Tankless water heater

Originally posted by bassphisher:
Just in case someone wants to know it is a power star AE 125 and you can view it here. http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/HeatingProducts/WaterHeating/powerstar/powerstarspecs.htm
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I *think* there may be a problem with the way they have described/indicated the required power for this unit or the way you perceive it.
They indicate that "a minimum 200A service" - do they mean the buildings service OR the "service" to the unit?
If they mean 200A service to the building, they are making a HUGE assumption that what is AVAILABLE will be sufficient to power the unit and not blow the main.
If they mean the unit requires a 200A circuit ~ "service" ~ (3x40 x 175% [demand factor?]), your new 200A service to the building will not be enough.
They indicate that the unit has a 120A rating, to say a "200A service minimum" is wrong - how the hell do they know what else someone has in their home???
What does "service" mean to YOU - to the building or the appliance?
The pdf file, was thoroughly useless. If anyone needs a nap, have a look AE125

I would call them at the 866 # and ask what a "service" means in VT.
 
Re: Tankless water heater

Thanks I will call the 866#
You are right about how the manufacturer uses the word "service".It would be a gross error on their part if they are talking about the service to the building.They have no idea what the other loads are in the building.The house is only 1500 square feet total.Basement and upstairs
With this aside what do you think about the location that they want to install this in.
Service to me means service to the building
Thanks

[ December 14, 2005, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: bassphisher ]
 
Re: Tankless water heater

I just got off the phone with the factory.All they did was cop out.Said that it should be installed by a qualified electrician.I asked about the 200Amp service to the building and what that meant to them.They said that it does mean 200Amps to the building and not to the appliance also informed them that this statement was a gross error on their part having no idea what other loads are going on in the house.And that they should delete that statement from their manual.
 
Re: Tankless water heater

Originally posted by bassphisher:
No one really addressed the issue of this being installed in a bathroom closet,or the 240v outlet for the dryer in the bathroom.Any code violation here?
Click to expand...
No, and no.

210.8 does not address fixed appliances or 240V receptacles. :)
 
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