Tapping On Line Side

[ctrane]

I would like to tap my service feeders ahead of the main for the purpose of running three lights to signal that utility is on. The reason I need it ahead of the main is that the board is backfed (via kirk-key) by a generator, and these lights would then signal to the operator that utility is back on line. Would these lights, and accompanying J-box, be considered a separate service and need to be grounded accordingly? Or, would an Eq. Gnd from the Service Panel be good enough to comply with code? There is no metering issue as there are ct's in the utility transformer taking care of metering. Also, is it code compliant to stick some #12's in the Main Lugs with the service feeders for this tapping purpose? Please assume that the circular mil of the feeder and #12 tap are less than the max kcmil of the lugs. Any help will be most appreciated.

 

[iwire]

IMO 230.82 will prevent you from tapping the line side of the existing service disconnect for this purpose.

That being the case you could tap these service conductors to feed a new service disconnect that is grounded and bonded.

Also, is it code compliant to stick some #12's in the Main Lugs with the service feeders for this tapping purpose?

No.

You could tap directly onto the service conductors wit listed taps. Split bolt, two bolt connectors or a good use of an insulation piercing tap.

Don't even think about doing it hot, call the utility schedule a shut down.

 

[mdshunk]

Very rarely you will find a single lug that is rated for a combination of two conductors in the same hole. They certainly exist, but they are quite rare.

Seems a little funny to build a little "service" to power a couple of phase lamps, but that's what it seems you're going to have to do. Disconnect, overcurrent device, grounding, the whole nine yards.

 

[iwire]

Seems a little funny to build a little "service" to power a couple of phase lamps, but that's what it seems you're going to have to do.

I agree, in 230.82 there is a list of equipment we could tap on the line side but I do not see indicator lamps.

It seems like more of an oversight than anything else.

Sure would like to call these lights 'load management devices' {230.82(4)} but I think that is a stretch.

 

[mdshunk]

Sure would like to call these lights 'load management devices' {230.82(4)} but I think that is a stretch.

Maybe I've even tapped up a few little neons with inline fuse holders on the line side of a disconnect before, but I "forget". I think that a load management device is an assembly that has been investigated by the UL for such use. If so, perhaps such an assembly to suit this purpose exists?

 

[kingpb]

I would do it as Bob explains, tap the feeder conductors with approved devices, mount a small Service Entrance Rated fused disconnect switch for the #12Awg, ground, bond, etc. and then run your lights off of the switch, doing it all DE-energized of course.

 

[steve66]

Seems like you should be able to get some kind of proximity sensor to tell you there is voltage on the service conductors without making physical contact.

Otherwise, I think your best solution (i.e. safest) may be to add another circuit breaker before or after the main. Then you would have a feeder you could tap (although I don't know that #12 would work).

 

[foqnc]

Could you not use some kind of Current Transformer around each cable which could be used to power an Indicator lamp?

 

[ryan_618]

I think this is legal if done correctly. 230.82(5) refers to circuits for standby systems, which I could stretch to mean what is being described. With that said, the general rule that would disallow this is 230.40, however, exception 5 refers the user to 230.82(5). If you had service rated transfer equipment that contained the three lights intergal to the equipment I think it would work. The installation as described wouldn't work, because the lights would have to be part of the service equipment to use 230.82(5).

 

[sandsnow]

What about 230.82(3) ?

An instrument transformer to indicate voltage connected to a meter would accomplish the same thing as the lights.

Double lugs are not that rare. I've seen up to double 250kcmil in the same hole. Used a lot in panelboards. Easily ID'd by the odd shaped hole. What is rare or unheard of is wires of different sizes in the same hole. From EG buss up to the big stuff, the wires are always of the same size.

 

[gobblerhuntr]

Ask the utility company to supply you with KYZ pulses and get it straight off their meter. You can use the pulses to flash a light when utility power is on.