Teaching Apprentices

[infinity]

Just wondering how many of us take time to teach apprentices while we're working with them in the field? I try to explain things while we're doing them whether it's bending conduit or installing switchgear, transformers or GEC's, etc. I find that some apprentices want the field training in real time because they can see it right in front of them, and others don't really care. I'm wondering if the don't really care types are worth the effort? I'm easily discouraged when I feel like I'm talking to someone who seemingly knows everything or I'm just talking to myself.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Just wondering how many of us take time to teach apprentices while we're working with them in the field? I try to explain things while we're doing them whether it's bending conduit or installing switchgear, transformers or GEC's, etc. I find that some apprentices want the field training in real time because they can see it right in front of them, and others don't really care. I'm wondering if the don't really care types are worth the effort? I'm easily discouraged when I feel like I'm talking to someone who seemingly knows everything or I'm just talking to myself.

i've always taken time to teach muppets. time was taken with me.
i appreciated it. i wasn't always the easiest muppet to work with.
the reason i'm able to support myself today is due to the people
who took the time to unselfishly teach me how to do it right, and
why it mattered.

and when i've ran across someone who does not seem to care, i
tend to care about making an effort with them to match their
level of disregard.

what i'm gonna say might sound like the old man growling
"get off my lawn", but it's not intended that way. what i have
noticed, spanning 40 years doing this, is that there has been
somewhat of a decline in the capability of people entering this
line of work. it really hit me about 15 years ago, looking at
people 20 years my junior, and seeing an overall lameness
and indifference to the craft.

as mostly all i do anymore is lighting certifications, i get to see
up close and personal how people do their work, and their level
of capability. for every one that is capable and cares about
their work, there are a half dozen who just don't get it, and don't
care that they don't get it. mediocrity abounds.

none of the guys i run across in my work know about this web site,
let alone would bother to participate here. that is sad. some of the
smartest folk i've ever listened to about this line of work, i've found
here.

 

[Saturn_Europa]

I don't work with apprentices. I work with plant mechanics. I'll teach guys that will run to the shop and get supplies, hand me tools and study the material I give them at home.

If I have to do all the work and explain it to someone ,who catches an attitude when I ask them to get something....... I'd rather do the work myself and leave them to change oil and grease equipment.

My boss asked me to train a mechanic and the first time I asked him if he was ready to review an MCC and PLC panel, he blew me off because it was to hot out. I gave it a couple of half hearted tries after that, and it was pretty obvious nothing was sticking. The guy still doesn't know an amp from an ohm.

 

[zbang]

My boss asked me to train a mechanic [...] The guy still doesn't know an amp from an ohm.

Well, yes. I've worked with what I call "electrical mechanics", they can run pipe and pull cable, but they have no idea why for just about everything ("print says 2 inch, I run 2 inch"). Fine, I can't bend pipe worth a darn, never could, and some of them are artists with a hickey bender, but when you need specific colors of wire don't bring me something else.

That said, people learn differently- some need to see it first, some need to do it, and some need to read about it first. Figuring that out and figuring out how to teach them is key. And some people just aren't cut out to teach.

 

[Cow]

. I'm wondering if the don't really care types are worth the effort? I'm easily discouraged when I feel like I'm talking to someone who seemingly knows everything or I'm just talking to myself.

I don't have any patience for the apprentices who don't seem to care one way or another. I'll take a few stabs at teaching them something, but if they seem uninterested or don't ask any questions, I write them off and bounce them off my crew.

One of the ongoing struggles in our shop is how long to screen the brand new apprentices before determining whether to keep them or not?

I said 2-4 weeks, but my boss thinks I'm a harda$$ and that I should give them more time. He thinks a few months. I always thought, if I can see they aren't going to work out in the first 2-4 weeks, why should we keep them around when there might be someone on the list right behind them that may actually be worth something? How much time are you guys giving it?

To those that seem interested, I will take every opportunity to teach them what little I know. I always look forward to the day when a person can be given a task and not need any explanation or guidance on what needs to happen. It just gets done. I look at it as small victories, one step at a time.

I think it was a members signature on here that said, "the world needs less electrical installers and more electricians." I'm looking for guys I can shape into electricians that can think, and not need a print or someone to hold their hand every time they get handed a project.

there are a half dozen who just don't get it, and don't
care that they don't get it. mediocrity abounds.

none of the guys i run across in my work know about this web site,
let alone would bother to participate here. that is sad. some of the
smartest folk i've ever listened to about this line of work, i've found
here.

What I bolded is incredibly frustrating. Just no drive to push themselves. The "everyone gets a trophy mentality."

This website and the members on here, have greatly contributed to the education I have. One only has to spend a few months on here to realize there is a great big world out there, with processes, materials and ways of doing things I would have never known about without this site.

 

[Saturn_Europa]

And some people just aren't cut out to teach.

I can teach someone to use a multi meter, a megger and a how to do installs.

But how do you teach someone Ohm's law in the field. Or Faraday's law of induction, or how to take a 4-20 mA reading and scale it to percentage. I give the guys references for that, YouTube links and Siemens has a really good free online training course. I'm definitely not a teacher but there is one guy that has met me halfway by putting in some effort on his own and can hopefully take over my job in 3-4 years. In my line of work there is no way that on the job training is going to be enough. You've got to hit the books after work to really nail down the fundamentals, then you can troubleshoot.

 

[Coppersmith]

I said 2-4 weeks, but my boss thinks I'm a harda$$

I enjoy teaching apprentices, even when it's costing me money to instruct or waste material. However, I'm usually very certain if they are going to make it within a week. If I think they are a lost cause, I'll keep them for a while to hand me tools and run to the truck, but I won't bother trying to instruct them any more.

 

[Fulthrotl]

One of the ongoing struggles in our shop is how long to screen the brand new apprentices before determining whether to keep them or not?

I said 2-4 weeks, but my boss thinks I'm a harda$$ and that I should give them more time. He thinks a few months. I always thought, if I can see they aren't going to work out in the first 2-4 weeks, why should we keep them around when there might be someone on the list right behind them that may actually be worth something? How much time are you guys giving it?

i grew up in organized labor, so take this for what it's worth.....

you'll normally know in three days if it's a keeper or not.
that holds for journeymen as well.

depending on the area's working agreement has something to do with it.
in this area, if you go over 40 hours, you start at the bottom of the list again.
so, if they don't look like someone you want to keep for the duration of the
time you need the labor, most people cut them loose on the third day of
employment, or the second if three days will put them back to the bottom
of the list. you don't want to economically disadvantage someone needlessly,
but there are a number of folks that you really don't want to play with.

i always figured everything was a three day call, unless i gave them a
compelling reason to want me to stay. i took jobs nobody else wanted,
and made them work if i could. nobody used to want to take jobs on a
friday, as if you were collecting unemployment, you lost money for that
week taking a job on friday.

all of my best jobs were dispatched on friday's.

 

[Strathead]

Just wondering how many of us take time to teach apprentices while we're working with them in the field? I try to explain things while we're doing them whether it's bending conduit or installing switchgear, transformers or GEC's, etc. I find that some apprentices want the field training in real time because they can see it right in front of them, and others don't really care. I'm wondering if the don't really care types are worth the effort? I'm easily discouraged when I feel like I'm talking to someone who seemingly knows everything or I'm just talking to myself.

Usually to the extent that there are rumors I get too deep:slaphead:. OTOH, there are some who have sought me out and I have taken time after work to explain things. So much depends on where the person is going in their career. I believe everyone should be able to understand what happens when a resistance is introduced in series with a load in a parallel circuit and also when that series load is on the neutral of a multiwire circuit up to an including the incoming service conductors. Beyond that it is kind of depending on what they do. I do some work with fire alarm, process controls etc. I am also self taught. I often have to go back and refresh on DC motors, induction theory, etc. but I always remember it exists.

On the other hand if there weren't some mechanics and everyone was thinking all the time, less would get done. So give me a good mechanic who doesn't care about ohm's law and is happy with their station and I will make lots of money with them.

 

[Padilla616]

I take the time to teach the best I can. During my apprenticeship I had good mentors and "bad" mentors. I'm thankful for the ones that took the time to teach me so I strive to be that person for the next guy.

 

[infinity]

The apprentices I work with are in a five year apprentice program where you'll be tested to move up to the next level to become a journeyman. It just amazes me that many of them have little desire to learn any more than they need to get by when they have 40 years in the trade ahead of them.

 

[Cow]

It just amazes me that many of them have little desire to learn any more than they need to get by when they have 40 years in the trade ahead of them.

Yes, it's definitely discouraging. It's never sat well with me when I've come across types of people like that, that are content just being "mediocre."

 

[petersonra]

The apprentices I work with are in a five year apprentice program where you'll be tested to move up to the next level to become a journeyman. It just amazes me that many of them have little desire to learn any more than they need to get by when they have 40 years in the trade ahead of them.

they probably are more interested in the more immediate goal of getting the journeyman requirements done before worrying about anything beyond that. can't say I blame them all that much. most people really do not have a fourty year time horizon. more like 40 minutes.

 

[Dominicbell]

Becoming an apprentice, what are some ways to work best in the field and with your contractor?

 

[infinity]

Becoming an apprentice, what are some ways to work best in the field and with your contractor?

I tell neophytes that they can learn quite a lot through observation, I call it education through observation. You should look at what you're doing and try to understand it, when you don't understand something ask for an explanation. For me teaching the next generation of electricians who will be partially paying my pension is important and part of the job of being a journeyman so I'll take the time to ask them questions and to explain things. It's the ones who show little interest in learning that get under my skin, maybe they already know it all. :roll:

 

[Fulthrotl]

It's the ones who show little interest in learning that get under my skin, maybe they already know it all. :roll:

ahem. i've *always* known it all....
the problem is about 31% of it is
*alternative knowledge*.

i'm just trying to get another 2% in
my favor before i die.

 

[mbrooke]

Just wondering how many of us take time to teach apprentices while we're working with them in the field? I try to explain things while we're doing them whether it's bending conduit or installing switchgear, transformers or GEC's, etc. I find that some apprentices want the field training in real time because they can see it right in front of them, and others don't really care. I'm wondering if the don't really care types are worth the effort? I'm easily discouraged when I feel like I'm talking to someone who seemingly knows everything or I'm just talking to myself.

If you get one of those that seem to know everything, quiz and probe them. See what is it that they have learned in advance. Play off of that. Often that will be the most telling. They either have been reading electrical books from a young age or are just the type who do not grasp how much effort is involved.


But to be frank some are not worth the effort IMHO. Modern education does an exceptionally good job of over simplifying the world we live in while denouncing effort in achievement... Many come in looking for basically a free pass, getting the ticket without any learning or work. In those cases the job is not for them.



Those who have the passion will show it when respected, those who do not will now show it no matter how much you try to bring out the best in them.


IMHO you can only change yourself. You can make yourself the best teacher in the world, but you can't make the best student if they have no zeal to take their chosen position seriously.

 

[infinity]

But to be frank some are not worth the effort IMHO. Modern education does an exceptionally good job of over simplifying the world we live in while denouncing effort in achievement... Many come in looking for basically a free pass, getting the ticket without any learning or work. In those cases the job is not for them.

My feeling as well hence this thread and the mini rant.

 

[mbrooke]

My feeling as well hence this thread and the mini rant.

Rants are always worth it, they passionately speak truth :thumbsup:

 

[Coppersmith]

The apprentices I work with are in a five year apprentice program where you'll be tested to move up to the next level to become a journeyman. It just amazes me that many of them have little desire to learn any more than they need to get by when they have 40 years in the trade ahead of them.

I'm a career changer. I started the apprenticeship when I was 46 in a class full of 20 somethings. I liked to say I was the world's oldest apprentice, but I'm told it wasn't true, there was a guy nearly at retirement age a few years before me who in fact retired just after graduation. Guess they really needed apprentices.

I would spend the required hour or two to read a book and answer questions in a workbook. When I was tested I rarely got more than two questions wrong. When you read the material, the classes are easy.

95% of my classmates would gather a few minutes before class to copy homework answers off each other and never read the material. Most would get failing or barely passing grades on tests. During class breaks I would see a few smoking dope in their cars. A dozen out of 30 made it to graduation.

Being older, more experienced, and having a family to support, it was easy for me to concentrate on doing a good job. But these kids? Meh.