THD and CFL's

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Microwatt

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North Dakota
Need some insight. I was looking at a lighting catolog and noticed all of the self -ballasted CFL's have a THD of 120 -170%. Most of the other ballasts I deal with are only 10-20% THD. Do CFL's really cause that much distortion? If so, what would their effect be on a large, complex electrical system? I'm not too experienced in the harmonic distortion area. I just know you want a lower percent. So, any help is appreciated.
 
If you want to reduce THD or Powerfactor it takes additional circuitry(cost & size). Cost isn't something companies are looking to add to their CFLs. Unless you house is lit up like a Christmas tree with CFLs, you shouldn't have issues because the THD is based on such a small wattage.

Steve
 
If you want to reduce THD or Powerfactor it takes additional circuitry(cost & size). Cost isn't something companies are looking to add to their CFLs. Unless you house is lit up like a Christmas tree with CFLs, you shouldn't have issues because the THD is based on such a small wattage.

Steve

And? My current instantaneous load is 242 watts, of which at least 30% is from CFLs.

It's not the total, it's the percentage. And the percentage is going up, if I have anything to do about it.
 
Need some insight. I was looking at a lighting catolog and noticed all of the self -ballasted CFL's have a THD of 120 -170%. Most of the other ballasts I deal with are only 10-20% THD. Do CFL's really cause that much distortion? If so, what would their effect be on a large, complex electrical system? I'm not too experienced in the harmonic distortion area. I just know you want a lower percent. So, any help is appreciated.

Their effect on a large complex electrical system would be negligible. If you are talking a large commercial or industrial load, lighting is typically a small percentage of the load. I have looked at hundreds of waveforms from large customers and the only harmonics producing loads that can affect their voltage waveforms are large drives, not lighting.

I also have looked at waveforms at my house, which has mostly CFL's. I had almost no other load on at the time of my test. I switched on all the CFL's and checked the scope. The current waveform was horribly distorted from all the harmonics. The voltage waveform was not very distorted at all due to the small amount of load CFL's consume. The interesting part was once the lights had been on for a few minutes, the harmonics were greatly reduced from 80% THD to about 20% THD.

Edit to add: I believe LED's will replaced CFL's soon and those will have harmonics as well, but will have a spectrum more like a PC. Once everybody gets on board with these it could be a problem for utilities.
 
Their effect on a large complex electrical system would be negligible. If you are talking a large commercial or industrial load, lighting is typically a small percentage of the load. I have looked at hundreds of waveforms from large customers and the only harmonics producing loads that can affect their voltage waveforms are large drives, not lighting.
I used to think the same way. My background is primarily in variable speed drive systems for industrial applications. I had pretty much discounted lighting and small power as significant sources of harmonic voltage distortion.

A couple of cases a few years ago made me look at it a bit differently. The first was a pumping station. There were eight VSDs. A couple of the larger units were 12-pulse and the others were 6-pulse. The station supply transformer was rated at 11kV/400V, 1500kVA. The 11kV was the point of common coupling (PCC). Typically for such a project, we had to do before and after harmonic measurements over a seven day period to show compliance with a contractually agreed standard following installation.

In the event, harmonic voltage distortion was outside the agreed limits with no drives running and no worse with all of them running in any combination. I could make no statistical correlation whatsoever between supply voltage distortion (at the PCC) and VSD loading.

My thoughts were that it was contrary to my expectations and initially seemed counter intuitive. Eventually the brain kicked in. The harmonic pollution already on the 11kV supply swamped anything we could do to it.
The pumping station was in a mainly residential area and the combined effect of all the non-linear domestic from all the houses was far greater than our eight VSDs because of the sheer number of them.
In UK and, I suppose, other countries too, power usage is very roughly one third industrial, one third commercial, and one third residential. Commercial premises dirty up the supply too. Like residential, no single item makes a huge impact, but a huge number of single items does.
And the supply system has to accommodate that.

The second case that made me review my thoughts about lighting and small power was a problem in a large prestigious hotel in the Middle East. It was the overheating neutral thing.
Total supply capacity of the transformers supplying the building was 15 MVA.
Electronically controlled lighting was about 3MVA. Although distributed around the phases, it was all single phase and rich in third harmonic. Bad for the neutral conductor.
Sure, it is just one very exotic building. But put together a number of residences fed from the same LV supply and you have the same issues albeit on a different scale. Add a number of these connected back at the HV and you have a problem of the same magnitude.

Low power non-linear loads are a growing problem.
If electric vehicles gain significant market share it could get a whole lot worse.
 
Thanks to you all for you input. Now an addition to the topic. How do you think CFLs would fair in a healthcare setting where harmonics can be and likely already are a big problem?
 
Besoeker,

I do not doubt there are some situations like you describe. In Indiana, so far that has not happened yet.

We are keeping an eye out for it and have language in place in contracts with our larger customers to ensure they meet IEEE 519 at the PCC. I do know there are a couple who do not meet the standard, but since there are no complaints from any other customers, we let it go for now. It will be interesting if we start getting IEEE 519 violations from residential customers or a combination of residential customers...who's responsible?

Microwatt - I can't answer that question with certainty since it depends on the stiffness of the source, what other loads there are in there, other loads susceptibility to voltage distortion, etc. There could be a few loads that do not like much of any voltage distortion.
 
We are keeping an eye out for it and have language in place in contracts with our larger customers to ensure they meet IEEE 519 at the PCC. I do know there are a couple who do not meet the standard, but since there are no complaints from any other customers, we let it go for now. It will be interesting if we start getting IEEE 519 violations from residential customers or a combination of residential customers...who's responsible?
Interesting, I agree.
I don't think the standards on either side of the pond are framed to take account of the aggregate effects from a number of customers none of whom exceed any limits. In fact, I think it would be very difficult to do so.
I think where it becomes a serious issue maybe the power company will have to deal with it.
 
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