The Electrician Installed His Equipment First!

[joe tedesco]

The electrician was there first, so it is not his fault, and the other guy has to make room for the electrical inspector who wears a size 40 belt!

:roll:

 

[goldstar]

Re: The Electrician Installed His Equipment First!

Joe,

Great photo. I had an identical situation at a small strip mall where someone (I won't even go as far as to imply that it was a plumber) installed a second boiler in front of a CT cabinet. The POCO could barely get the cover off the cabinet not to mention working access to the 11 meters and breaker panels in the small room.

Who gets to be the unfortunate one who has to correct this ???

 

[pierre]

Re: The Electrician Installed His Equipment First!

What really irritates me about an installation such as this is, if an electrician did the wiring for this how he does not protect our industry by saying he will not do the work.This is clearly a violation, and very unsafe. There is no need to get an inspector or utility person to inspect this work after power is already on the site. That is how an installation such as this gets installed. There are a lot of 'MUTS' who will do this because of the 'almighty dollar' and we will never see one at a forum looking for answers.

Joe
When you come across a situation like this as an inspector, what can you do?

Pierre

 

[joe tedesco]

Re: The Electrician Installed His Equipment First!

goldstar,

Who gets to be the unfortunate one who has to correct this ???

The plan checker!

No, I would stand behind the electrician, but would not release the cut-over to the utility company, but that would hold up the job, so what usually happens next is "Political Interference" sets in and "Uncle Bernie's Brother" is a Councilman, and his wife "Bertha" is the teller at the marriage license window there in City Hall!

This job, as far as I know, is still this way in a training room I used once to update the finest bunch of electrician's I ever met during the 1996 NEC cycle!

PS: I sure would appreciate a copy of a picture if one is available for the job you described above.

Joe Tedesco

[ September 06, 2003, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: joe tedesco ]

 

[joe tedesco]

Re: The Electrician Installed His Equipment First!

Pierre

Joe
When you come across a situation like this as an inspector, what can you do?

My message above was posted before yours, and some of the typical "solutions" are mentioned.

If I was the inspector here I would not even go to the site if I knew that this existed!

Funny thing, now that my mind has recycled, I believe that the person who showed me this told me it was an electrical inspector who did the job in the first place! Nothing wrong with that though.

Funny thing about Massachusetts rules, an Electrical Inspector can do work, and have an Assistant check, I think.

Bob: Can you look for that rule in the State of Massachusetts that covers this, please?

Thanks,
Joe Tedesco
www.joetedesco.com

[ September 06, 2003, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: joe tedesco ]

 

[goldstar]

Re: The Electrician Installed His Equipment First!

PS: I sure would appreciate a copy of a picture if one is available for the job you described above.

Sorry Joe. This was one of those jobs that you just don't want to go back on and I probably never will. But in addition to what I've already mentioned the store in this strip mall that I did work in was a Subway sandwich shop. I had to increase their 3 phase service to 200 amps and relocate a sub panel. Access to this boiler room was free at any given point in time. On the very day that it came time for my work to get inspected there was a new lock placed on the entrance door to the boiler room (by the mall owner) and it took me 30 minutes to cut it off so that he could inspect (do you think they knew that something was wrong ?).

While we're on the subject of violations I'd like to mention that the inspector wouldn't pass my work inside the store unless I "cleaned up" the area above the ceiling. There were multiple armored cables laying on the hung ceiling grid (work done by previous contractors) that had to be supported to the building members above. His reasoning was that if I was the last electrician to do work on the job then I should be the one to bring everything up to code. Weeks of arguing took place after that but I finally got the store owner to have someone come in and support the cables.

But the "coup de grace" were the paddle fans over the seating areas in the store. As luck would have it the ideal hanging spot for several of these fans ended up being at the cross sections of the hung ceiling grid. Instead of moving over a few inches and using a 4" round box with a bar bracket the installer actually cut slots in the 4" box with a hack saw and laid it directly on top of the grid at the cross section with no other support. I wish I could get a photo of that one for your archives !!!

Regards,

Phil

 

[iwire]

Re: The Electrician Installed His Equipment First!

Originally posted by joe tedesco:
Funny thing about Massachusetts rules, an Electrical Inspector can do work, and have an Assistant check, I think.

Bob: Can you look for that rule in the State of Massachusetts that covers this, please?

Thanks,
Joe Tedesco

Joe I just saw your request and I tried to do a search of the Mass General Laws but I kept getting a message "Index content Corrupt" so I had no luck.

Off the top my head I was always under the impression an inspector could not work in the city or town they are an inspector in.

This is just what I have been told and we all know how wrong that can be.

Bob

 

[iwire]

Re: The Electrician Installed His Equipment First!

Joe I got what you where looking for and you are correct that an assistant can inspect an inspectors electrical work.

It seems that this could easily be abused.

GENERAL LAWS OF MASSACHUSETTS

PART I.

ADMINISTRATION OF THE GOVERNMENT

TITLE XXII.

CORPORATIONS

CHAPTER 166. TELEPHONE AND TELEGRAPH COMPANIES, AND LINES FOR THE TRANSMISSION OF ELECTRICITY

POLES AND WIRES

Chapter 166: Section 32A Inspector of wires working as electrician; inspection by assistant inspector

Section 32A. In a city, town or district which accepts this section, a licensed electrician who is appointed inspector of wires may practice for hire or engage in the business for which licensed under the applicable provisions of chapter one hundred and forty-one while serving as such inspector; provided, however, that within the area over which he has jurisdiction as wiring inspector he shall not exercise any of his powers and duties as such inspector, including those of enforcement officer of the state electrical code, over wiring or electrical work done by himself, his employer, employee or one employed with him. Any such city, town or district may in the manner provided in the preceding section appoint an assistant inspector of wires who shall exercise the duties of inspector of wires, including those of enforcement officer of the state electrical code, over work so done. Said assistant inspector may act in absence or disability of the local inspector and for his services shall receive like compensation as the city, town or district shall determine.

This section shall take effect upon its acceptance in a city, by vote of the city council, subject to the provisions of the charter of such city; in a town, by vote of the board of selectmen; in a municipality having a town council form of government, by a vote of the town council, subject to the provisions of the charter of such municipality and in a district, by vote as above provided of the cities and towns of the district.

Notice the use of "he" and "his" does this mean the rule does not apply to female electrical inspectors?

Bob

[ September 07, 2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[iceman2610]

Re: The Electrician Installed His Equipment First!

Off the top my head I was always under the impression an inspector could not work in the city or town they are an inspector in.

This is just what I have been told and we all know how wrong that can be.

Bob

I agree whole heartly that this would be wrong!!!! But wrong is not alwayse illeagle. I have just encountered a job where the electrical inspector referred our company for the job, Before we started on the job the inspector (who also is an electrical contractor) had grounded the service so the utilities could be reconnected. The structure was being converted into offices, the power suply was three-phase 208 400A service. The inspector had grounded the service by means of the CT can. The ground was a insulated (black) 3/0 thhn and ran through the meter-base into the CT can. The ground was not carried on into the building to the first means of disconnect. There was only four conductors going from the CT can into the disconnect - three phase conductors and a grounded conductor. The ground was also not carried on from the primary disconnect to two 200A subpanels. The two grounded conductors existing (one was a #4 bare conductor and the other a #3 bare conductor) was melted at the connection point at the first means of disconnect. The utilities was reconnected Not because the work was done correctly, but because the inspector approved his own work and called in for a hook-up.

Having siad this, about 1 1/2 months had passed and we were called (by the same inspector) out to do an emercency service repair - On a holiday weekend. I personally wasn't at the job, but was called about it during the work being performed. The electrician doing the work didn't have all of the tools needed to drill through 18" of brick to run the ground into the house to the first means of disconnect - He asked me if I thought the inspector would pass the service if he ran the ground into the meter base. In addition to what the same inspector had done on the first job mentioned, our electrician also added a bonding bushing to each end of the conduit extending from the meter base to the panel box. He ran a ground from the bonding bushing to the ground bar in the panel box. He didn't seperate the neutrals and the grounds (This was his mistake) which created parallel paths for the grounded conductor. But still, the service far exceeded what the inspector had done on this other job. The power company hooked up to the service without an inspection - so the residence wouldn't be without power for four days. The inspection was done on the following tuesday - The inspection failed.

We didn't argue with the AHJ as he had every right to turn down the service. It was done incorrectly. The service he had done 1 1/2 months prior had a number of other violations.

How should this be allowed. He proved that he knew better when he turned down our service - and yet had just completed a service which had already began to self-destruct. Scary isn't it.

By the way, I am working in Northeastern Indiana.

 

[roger]

Re: The Electrician Installed His Equipment First!

Iceman,

The inspector had grounded the service by means of the CT can. The ground was a insulated (black) 3/0 thhn and ran through the meter-base into the CT can. The ground was not carried on into the building to the first means of disconnect.

The GEC would not need to go to the disconnect, being that it is already made upstream.

There was only four conductors going from the CT can into the disconnect - three phase conductors and a grounded conductor.

This is all that is needed.

The ground was also not carried on from the primary disconnect to two 200A subpanels.

Now we have a problem, the EGC would be needed here.

The electrician doing the work didn't have all of the tools needed to drill through 18" of brick to run the ground into the house to the first means of disconnect

Once again, if the GEC is already in place at the CT can or meter why would it need to be run inside to the Main?

Of course if there is a utility restriction on making the GEC connection in their equipment I could see the problem but not an NEC violation.

Roger

 

[iwire]

Re: The Electrician Installed His Equipment First!

Originally posted by iceman2610:
I agree whole heartily that this would be wrong!!!! But wrong is not always illegal.

Iceman after finding the law for my state, I would say an inspector can not work in the town or city they are a inspector in, unless there is an assistant available to do the inspection.

That said, who do you think will choose the assistant, the town govt. or the inspector themselves. :roll:

Seems like a poor arrangement.

Bob

 

[Guest]

Re: The Electrician Installed His Equipment First!

In my state (CA) all work must be done
according to STANDARD TRADE PRACTICES. Irrespective of any codes, rules, laws, plans, etc. if something is done that is contrary to STANDARD TRADE PRACTICES that is the way to enforce good quality work. Perfection is not a requirement. Perfection cannot be demanded or expected, but all work in my area must be done to standard trade practices.

If the workmanship is in question it usually takes an EXPERT WITNESS or a professional private inspection to help determine if the work was done to at least Standard Trade Practices.

../Wayne

 

[iceman2610]

Re: The Electrician Installed His Equipment First!

Roger, Thanx for your input. Really appreciated.

I attempted to find the code supporting this claim - however unsuccessful. Anyway here goes. I agree that 250.24(A)(1) allows for the grounding connection to be connected at accessible point on the Service Drop and service lateral which in my eyes include the meter can. However, I have always felt that the grounding conductor should be carried on to the first means of disconnect (or Main) and connected to the grounding bar. In this installation, the bonding screw (or strap) should not be installed in the panel.

Without continuing the grounding conductor from the meter can to the Main panel, then the grounded conductor would double as a grounding connector. This would be a code violation as the gounding conductor should not intentionally carry a current.

I will continue to search the code when I am not pressured for time, if any one else finds anything supporting or contrary to my claims, would you please post it.

Thanx.
p.s luv this new spell check.

 

[hurk27]

Re: The Electrician Installed His Equipment First!

Iceman:

By the way, I am working in Northeastern Indiana.

I'm in notrhwest Indiana
Portage to be exact It seems that we have common problems that would of been solved if HB1498 would of went through.
Indiana require that before a local unit of government can adopt a building ordnance it must first pass through the state building commissioner's office but it seems that around here they just adopt laws on the fly. as for a local AHJ doing work in a area where he is also the AHJ would be a very big violation of law of ethic's as it would be a conflict of interest. A AHJ in Indiana is just like a law officer and have to go by the same codes of ethic's that the police do.
The problem with this is there is no watch dogs to go after this and it is up to us (contractors) to complain but as with most nobody will as they know that unless they can unseat these types of dictators they stand the chance of getting put out of business themselves or getting red tagged on every job.
Now I'm not saying that all the AHJ's around here is this way. and even there are some who are very fair even when they don't have to be, but there is some that think that there god and what they say is the only way. and just dare you to say anything different.

 

[iceman2610]

Re: The Electrician Installed His Equipment First!

I agree with you. Our company hasn't been in business long enough to start rocking a boat of this caliper either. It's not that we have no backbone, but we have no interest of jumping over a cliff with a noose around our necks either.

Thanks for the reply.