The future of the trade

[peter d]

Over the past few months I have made some observations about the electrical trade, and was wondering if anyone has noticed the same things.

1) There is an astonishing lack of basic trade knowledge among license holders and apprentices alike. I'm not talking about knowing how to hook up a classified location, but basic stuff like box fill, voltage drop calculation, conductor sizing, grounding/bonding principles and so forth.

2) Many improper techniques and myths are getting passed from old to new workers without them being "busted," thus indoctrinating the next generation of workers with wrong ideas. Many times the apprentice schools perpetuate this cycle with improper instruction.

3) Pride is the biggest obstacle to learning and expanind one's knowledge. Some people just can't accept that they are wrong and need to change their view.

These of course are general observations and there are some savvy electricians out there who love to learn and always accept new ideas and methods. I just don't run into them very often, perhaps less than 10% of the electricians I meet fit into this category.

 

[redfish]

Re: The future of the trade

Good hands are hard to find. I think it's like that in every trade, some people have it and some don't. Every now and then you find that star that shines and loves to do it.

 

[william runkle]

Re: The future of the trade

Peter I agree with you but to give some insight on your observations. The first one the NEC is only being taught as updated not the whole book as I went through the class 3 different cycles in the late 70s and 80s. Second all of us older ones have learned from our own mistakes and when I try to explain the reason I do it this way the response I get back you never let me do it my way so I back off and let them try and fail and hope they learn from it. It is at these times you might see them make the mistake and get the wrong picture. And for the third we all need to improve our quality all of us. But this is still the only trade that is classified as professionals just like Doctors and Lawyers the Electrician is a professional so we all have to work to keep the trade there and thank-you for the reminder I will try to do better.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: The future of the trade

kind of like noticing that the new tradesmen look at our trade as a "job"---not as we did a "livelyhood"!!! ya i got the picture!!!

 

[Jhr]

Re: The future of the trade

By Charlie: kind of like noticing that the new tradesmen look at our trade as a "job"---not as we did a "livelyhood"!!! ya i got the picture!!!

I agree, to many it is also just a side job, extra money in their pockets, and that also hurts the trade.

 

[cselectric]

Re: The future of the trade

I certainly see a decline in overall quality, though maybe not in the same light as you.

1. Yes, there are a lot of bad habits and misconceptions out there. But, I believe we expect more out of journeymen than we once did. Even when I started in this trade, which was only 16 years ago, it was real common to see crews full of journeymen that were top notch at bending pipe, pulling wire, terminating, fixturing... but had little clue what to do without a foremans direction. The journeymen worked, the foreman handled the brainwork. Now, we expect everyone to be a code expert. Not that that's a bad thing, it certainly is not, but I see a lot of guys who never came up to speed. The job changed, they didn't.

2. Pride should never be an issue. When you get right down to it, pride and a level are what seperate a true craftsman from a hack. Now ego, which is what I believe you are really speaking of, is a big problem.

and, to be honest, I think the biggest problem is that the old hands are retiring and taking a wealth of knowledge with them. Meanwhile, there are no replacements entering the ranks. You can't get good help because you can't get good apprentices. You can't get good apprentices because todays youth have no interest in manual labor. A few decades of the school systems basically saying "either you go to college or your a useless sack of dung" has had a negative effect on the skilled trades. We, the skilled craftsmen of the world, represent the middle ground of that equation. We aren't in a position that requires a degree, but we are well beyond the realm of watching parts fall out of a machine for minimum wage. From what I've seen when I went through high school, and from my children's experience, that middle ground does not exist in the eyes of our educators.

 

[celtic]

Re: The future of the trade

Originally posted by cselectric:
....I think the biggest problem is that the old hands are retiring and taking a wealth of knowledge with them. Meanwhile, there are no replacements entering the ranks.

Very well said.

Originally posted by cselectric:
....but we are well beyond the realm of watching parts fall out of a machine for minimum wage.

 

[petersonra]

Re: The future of the trade

I find that the worst electricians are often the ones that have been around a long while. they get very ornery about their 20+ years of experience. I don't mean to imply that all of the 20 year guys are this way, just that the worst of the worst tend to be 20 year guys. at least in my limited experience.

younger guys seem to be more willing to accept the idea they have more to learn. I also think the apprenticeship programs have improved the last decade, and the newer guys are better trained, at least in some of the things I am interested in (like datacomm and control wiring). many of the old hands are worthless for doing those type of tasks, yet you can't tell them anything cause you can't get past the "I've been doing this for 30 years" nonsense.

 

[redfish]

Re: The future of the trade

I think it has a lot to do with respect also.It only takes me a few minutes to show some smart a** apprentice how he should respect me.You know, walk softly, but carry a big stick.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: The future of the trade

Originally posted by cselectric:
and, to be honest, I think the biggest problem is that the old hands are retiring and taking a wealth of knowledge with them.

Ah, but I have found a wellspring of old farts who like telling secrets.

 

[iwire]

Re: The future of the trade

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Ah, but I have found a wellspring of old farts who like telling secrets.

And just where is that?

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I had no desire for some desk job, getting fat and pale.

Now your hitting close to home, I am fat and pale.

I can still put in a days work, I can only imagine what I would look like if I did sit at a desk everyday.

 

[celtic]

Re: The future of the trade

As the college jobs get outsourced - much like the manufac. jobs have been lost - knowing a trade is a worthy endevour. There will always be a need for skilled tradesman after all the NAFTAs, CAFTAs, and other BSFTAs have been signed...even after they figure out how to completey build a home, restaurant or gas station and ship it here as one piece.

After a few years learning the trade, a person can attain JM status and STILL be more financially secure than a college grad facing paying back school loans, having little to no experience in their chosen field, and a grim job outlook. After all the college, the entry level college type job pay scale is usually lower than the rate a qualified JM can command. A JM with a good head can easily become a licensed/master and start their own business...sure a grad could too, but it could take more time and be more risky - the grad has little experience and school loans still. If the JM fails, all is not lost - a good set of tools will always make money. If the grad fails, it will be just another drop in the bucket of financial misery (depending on the business started).

Years ago, the mantra of "go to school or dig ditches" was all the rage. Today a college grad has a tough time finding a job, while ditches are being dug all over. I've dug my share of ditches, literally, and while I wasn't thrilled to be doing it - today I am a "head ditch digger".

 

[petersonra]

Re: The future of the trade

There will always be a need for skilled tradesmen and the best skilled and upto date ones will be most in demand.

Part of the problem is that the skills that are in demand tend to change over time, and the existing tradesmen are often very slow to learn new skills. This often manifests itself in just plain refusing to accept new things, or even actively fighting them.

Look at the how long it took to get Romex almost universally accepted. Its still not allowed in some areas. Same with plastic DWV piping. There is a lot of fear that new technology and methods will erode the labor base, yet this is not usually the case. Often it actually expands the labor base.

Look at how many homes are being built today versus a few decades ago. Don't tell me that new techniques and materials are not a big part of that.

 

[physis]

Re: The future of the trade

I think the future of the electrical trade is the same as the future of most other economic enterprises in our country. In too many cases (in my not always humble opinion) possibly somewhere between intentionally dishonest and embarrassing.

There are a lot of factors that force everybody to compete on the same field. But it's not the field I think people with pride and dignity want to play on. And unfortunately that means there will probably be less and less pride and dignity and more and more of whatever else.

I think the problem is population density (that's different than population). At some point the resources can't sustain whatever standard of living and the resulting completion is hard to view as healthy. It moves toward down right brutal.

Sociologists have known for a long time that a certain number of rats can live happily together below a certain population density. Above that they become murderous and selfish.

The high population densities we have now days are extremely beneficial for corporate and political interests. But dismal for social concerns. I wonder which is more important. And who decides.

 

[cselectric]

Re: The future of the trade

Originally posted by physis:
I think the future of the electrical trade is the same as the future of most other economic enterprises in our country. In too many cases (in my not always humble opinion) possibly somewhere between intentionally dishonest and embarrassing.

There are a lot of factors that force everybody to compete on the same field. But it's not the field I think people with pride and dignity want to play on. And unfortunately that means there will probably be less and less pride and dignity and more and more of whatever else.

I see a lot of the same things. We, as a society, have shifted our beliefs away from a base of honesty, quality and integrity. We have shifted into the cut throat world of "may the lowest price win." That doesn't just effect the electrical world, but the world as a whole. FAst and cheap is what it's all about. It's the McDonalds model of the world (and I do mean the post Ray Croc McDonald's, when quality went out the window.)

It used to be an electrical contractor could build a solid relationship with a customer, based on quality, bringing jobs in on time, efficient service, etc... Once that relationship was established, it often flourished. As long as the EC kept his bids close, and refrained from taking advantage of the good will offered as an opportunity to price gouge, the work kept rolling in. These days, I've seen loyal customers kiss off an EC over a couple hundred dollars on a bid. "Sorry, EC A is $300 cheaper, were using him now." Business relationships are won and lost on mere pennies (when compared to the entire cost of the project.)At the same time, quality often suffers, as the low bidders are often the "hack it in, it looks good from my house" types that thrive on low prices and care not about quality. I actually worked for a guy who's motto was "all it has to do is last a year, after that me make money fixing it on a service call." This is insane, but it is real.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: The future of the trade

Originally posted by cselectric:
......I actually worked for a guy who's motto was "all it has to do is last a year, after that me make money fixing it on a service call." This is insane, but it is real.

Sad to say, I agree. I have found a niche though in offering high quality work at a "fair" (not cheap) price. I am almost never the lowest price. I have this luxury because I am a one man show. If I had to keep others busy 40 hours a week, I may bid lower and lower, and push harder and harder and possibly develop the "last a year" mentality.

 

[cselectric]

Re: The future of the trade

Originally posted by hardworkingstiff:

Originally posted by cselectric:
......I actually worked for a guy who's motto was "all it has to do is last a year, after that me make money fixing it on a service call." This is insane, but it is real.

Sad to say, I agree. I have found a niche though in offering high quality work at a "fair" (not cheap) price. I am almost never the lowest price. I have this luxury because I am a one man show. If I had to keep others busy 40 hours a week, I may bid lower and lower, and push harder and harder and possibly develop the "last a year" mentality.

That is the niche I try to fill as well. But, every day it gets haeder and harder to play that game in the general electrical market. I've found myself focusing heavily on certain submarkets where money is far less of an object than the general market (custom lighting design/install, energy efficient lighting retrofit, contracted maintenance...) I've found that focusing on the specialty items that most contractors don't focus on is the one way to maintain higher quality and subsequently higher prices without getting my clock cleaned by every fly by nighter that comes down the pipe.

 

[benaround]

Re: The future of the trade

When I first got into this trade I remember a lot of the older,experienced,guys having conversations very similar to these.

The more things change,the more they stay the same.

frank

 

[allenwayne]

Re: The future of the trade

actually worked for a guy who's motto was "all it has to do is last a year, after that me make money fixing it on a service call." This is insane, but it is real.


Sorry but this is the case this trade has gotten to.It is no longer apprentice and work your way up the ladder.Now they want to be paid top dollar after 3 years in trade.
When i started it was a min. of 5 years in trade before you started to go up the ladder.Then it was 3 more years before you started to make some good money

 

[big john]

Re: The future of the trade

This is actually a topic that hits really close to home for me because I've personally experienced a lot of the stuff being talked about here.

I got my GED to get into the electrical trade because I can't sit behind a desk. I figure this is the next best thing to being an EE which I can't do because, again, I can't tolerate sitting behind a desk staring at a screen all day. No one seems to understand why I have no interest in college, and when I left highschool they were busy demolishing the vocational department to build new classrooms. You can't miss the irony that they are using skilled tradesmen to subvert the effort to train future skilled tradesmen; who builds the classrooms after you've told the students that the only thing important in this world is computer skills? Better yet who builds the factories that produce those computers? :roll:

I found in my last job as a maintenance tech and unfortinately, am finding in my new job as an electricians assistant again, there isn't much room for quality work. There's one license in the whole shop and this guy never even picks up his tools. Not that being unlicensed means unskilled, but I've only been there a week and already heard "When the walls go up no one will see it" more than once. And today I brought up the point that it's probably not good to zip-tie three 12/3 (240V circuits) and five 12/2 Romex together for 50+ feet, I was told that "derating only applies if you have like fifteen or twenty cables together." And this is also being run exposed in an aircraft hanger, which just looks like hell and nevermind 513.7(A). You get the idea.

And as someone learning the trade it puts me in a bad spot to work with folks like this because every time I ask a question, I have to take the answer with a grain of salt. Someone may not realise what they're telling me is wrong, or, and this is much more unfortinate but it happens a lot: They give me an answer they know is wrong just so they don't have to admit they don't know (just because I ask a question doesn't mean I'm too ignorant to smell BS).

It took me a couple years away from electrical work to realise I really enjoy doing it--regardless of the crap I have to shovel--so I'm gonna do my two more years and find some classes to enroll in. I figure when I get my card and it's my name on the truck, then I'll know for a fact that it's getting done right.

-John