The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

[jes25]

In regards to low voltage wiring in romex from remote transformer to light fixture, is it permissible to have:

1) An open splice to light fixture where not concealed?
2) An open splice where concealed such as in a cabinet "false" bottom or stud wall?
3) Ungrounded metal boxes containing a low volt romex and fixture leads?
4) High and low voltage romex run in building with no separation?

My answers would be
1) Yes
2) NO
3) Yes
4) Yes

Another question would be does article 725 have any bearing on lights under 30 volts?

 

[JohnE]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

1. No
2. No
3. Yes
4. Yes

 

[jes25]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

Whats your rationale for NO on #1. By open I mean wirenuts or terminal block under a cabinet or above a cove.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

I have to say, after reading Ryan's recent article and threads about LV lighting, I am very depressed about the options. I am very unclear as to a single legal way to install concealed wiring to a LV light. It seems as though they're all illegal.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I have to say, after reading Ryan's recent article and threads about LV lighting,....

Where can one look at that article?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

Ryan's article is here.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

Joe,

Going back to your opening post,

Originally posted by jes25:
In regards to low voltage wiring in romex from remote transformer to light fixture

Are you framing this question with a listed "low voltage lighting system" in mind? Is the transformer and the light fixture part of an Article 411 Low Voltage Lighting System?

If so, then, in my opinion, a lot of the splices, when not concealed, can be in free air, however, the splices that are at the transition of a Chapter 3 method to the exposed Article 411 wiring must comply with Chapter 3 materials to end the method.

300.16 Raceway or Cable to Open or Concealed Wiring
(A) Box or Fitting A box or terminal fitting having a separately bushed hole for each conductor shall be used wherever a change is made from conduit, electrical metallic tubing, electrical nonmetallic tubing, nonmetallic-sheathed cable, Type AC cable, Type MC cable, or mineral-insulated, metal-sheathed cable and surface raceway wiring to open wiring or to concealed knob-and-tube wiring. A fitting used for this purpose shall contain no taps or splices and shall not be used at luminaire (fixture) outlets.

 

[jes25]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

"Are you framing this question with a listed "low voltage lighting system" in mind? Is the transformer and the light fixture part of an Article 411 Low Voltage Lighting System?"

Yes, but another question would be, for example do I have to use a juno transformer for a juno light or could another brand be used with the same specs?

"a lot of the splices, when not concealed, can be in free air"

How do we determine that, from article 411?

"however, the splices that are at the transition of a Chapter 3 method to the exposed Article 411 wiring must comply with Chapter 3 materials to end the method."

This is my main question. So I wire it like high volt until the romex ends and then apply article 725 methods? 411 doesn't have any methods.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I have to say, after reading Ryan's recent article and threads about LV lighting, I am very depressed about the options. I am very unclear as to a single legal way to install concealed wiring to a LV light. It seems as though they're all illegal.

Yes it is deplorable that the manufacturers produce a lighting system and have no support products to complete the install.I wouldn`t want to see splices under my upper cabinets IE: wire nuts .
The best way I have found is when roughed the NM stubs instead of being stubbed at 54 in so as to exit the dryall right at the bottom of the cabinet get stubbed at 58 ins. and when cabinets are installed they are stubbed into the cabinet itself.When trim out is done I drill a 1/4 in hole in the bottom of the cabinet,then route wiring through the hole and use a wiremold box a short piece of wiremold and make up in the box and blank off.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

Hi Joe,

Originally posted by jes25:
Yes, but another question would be, for example do I have to use a juno transformer for a juno light or could another brand be used with the same specs?

I'd suggest reading the Juno installation instructions and the label on the transformer. If they say something like "For use with Juno Lighting Systems.", then that's the limit. I've seen some transformers that have no reference to a manufacturer in the "For use" clause.

Originally posted by jes25:
"a lot of the splices, when not concealed, can be in free air"

How do we determine that, from article 411?

This is the way I had it explained to me last week. The NEC, and Article 411, are silent about the Lighting System wire, when not concealed, being spliced, and the manner of the splice. So, if it is not prohibited, it is permitted.

Common sense says the splice should be sound, 'cause it may burn. . .good workmanship, as usual, is expected.

Originally posted by jes25:
So I wire it like high volt until the romex ends and then apply article 725 methods? 411 doesn't have any methods.

Article 411 doesn't refer us to 725 for the method of wiring running the Lighting System cable exposed, only for concealed. This is where the NEC and 411 is silent.

Personally, I install the cable so that it follows the surface closely, and I use the same thinking that I use for routing and supporting exposed NM. . . but this is an uncharted area. The NEC doesn't prohibit Article 411 Lighting System cable from being installed exposed.

 

[JohnE]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

Originally posted by jes25:
Whats your rationale for NO on #1. By open I mean wirenuts or terminal block under a cabinet or above a cove.

300.15 requires a box for splices. Article 411 does not provide exception to this requirement, so boxes are necessary. I have to admit I was confused about this as well, and Ryan helped clear things up for me.

 

[jes25]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

Thanks a ton for the help.

How do we determine that these circuits do not have to be bonded. I realize the grounding article is in chapter 2, not 3. 411 is silent on the issue so we know it can be left ungrounded?? (typically the ground wire is simply cut off at termination point).

Does anyone know of a class or DVD etc. offered on the subject.

[ February 19, 2006, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: jes25 ]

 

[tom baker]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

ARt 250 does not require grounding if its under 50 volts, with some exceptions.
See 250.20 (A) and (B)

 

[jes25]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

After reading a similar thread in the "Low voltage" category, I think I have become more confused. My questions on the topic are general but I do have a job in mind where brand X transformers are being used with brand X,Y and Z fixtures. How does this change the requirements if at all? Is this now not a 411 "system" Why is this so difficult, or am I making a mountain out of a mole hill here? I find this topic so confusing and possibly dangerous I have avoided installing the systems. Thanks again for the help and patience.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

I had an inspector last year that gave me an ulcer over puck lights his pet peeve was the transformer and how was it going to be seperated from line voltage/load voltage and protect the line voltage wiring.
My solution was 2 2 gang boxes in an inconspicuos location and in one was the line voltage switch leg and the trans and a jumper to the 2nd box where the puck light feed where.He accepted that but in my head I laughed.The line voltage and load voltage are still in the same enclosure.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

Originally posted by j_erickson:
300.15 requires a box for splices.

Except when a box is not required by 300.15, and also 300.16.

Article 411 is clear to invoke Chapter 3 wiring methods only for concealed wiring (setting aside for the moment 680 and 500 thru 517).

The silence here is thunderous, to me. When the Low Voltage Lighting System cable supplied with the isolation power supply and luminaires is installed exposed, we are not directed to any installation guideline. That is, we are not guided by the NEC.

I'll bet we see more proscriptive language in the future, but, in my opinion, it's not there now.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

Originally posted by jes25:
I do have a job in mind where brand X transformers are being used with brand X,Y and Z fixtures. How does this change the requirements if at all? Is this now not a 411 "system"

Read any literature included from the manufacturer with the brand X transformer and the brand X, Y & Z luminaires and look for restrictive statements, or the lack thereof. If the items are only Low Voltage Lighting System listed, then when they are used together they are still listed as a "Lighting System" and the manufacturer's instructions are complied with when there is no written instruction to use "X" only.

Originally posted by jes25:
I find this topic so confusing and possibly dangerous I have avoided installing the systems.

If the connections aren't tight, they'll heat. But, hey, solid connections of large enough conductors are our bread and butter.

 

[JohnE]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:

Originally posted by j_erickson:
300.15 requires a box for splices.

Except when a box is not required by 300.15, and also 300.16.

Article 411 is clear to invoke Chapter 3 wiring methods only for concealed wiring (setting aside for the moment 680 and 500 thru 517).

The silence here is thunderous, to me. When the Low Voltage Lighting System cable supplied with the isolation power supply and luminaires is installed exposed, we are not directed to any installation guideline. That is, we are not guided by the NEC.

I'll bet we see more proscriptive language in the future, but, in my opinion, it's not there now.

Al, OP stated romex to low voltage lights. I didn't take it that low voltage cable supplied with lights was used.

 

[jes25]

Re: The neverending quest for compliant low volt lighting.

Thanks again guys and it seems to make more sense now that I have slept on it. Now, my next step is to check with the state of MI. To see if we defer to the NEC on this issue, since their is NO language about these lights in the MRC (IRC with amendements).