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There ought to be a law (contest)

Merry Christmas
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brycenesbitt

Senior Member
Location
United States
A local State senator is running a "There ought to be a law" contest.
I'm thinking of putting in that "Amazon should be responsible for unlisted equipment sold on it's platform".
Such as, EVSE, extension cords.
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I'd love to have data, but I know what moves things is stories of children harmed. Anyone have such a story?
I have pile of burned power strips, but that does not tug the heartstrings. Anthing?
 
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garbo

Senior Member
Found that Amazon provides next to little specifications on products. Forget about them telling you country of origin. Good example wanted to compare Wago connectors for wire size ,voltage & ampere. One listing only stated 12 guage wire but going to Wago site found they were listed for believe it was #18 to #12 wire.
 
B

brycenesbitt

Senior Member
Location
United States
garbo said:
Found that Amazon provides next to little specifications on products. Forget about them telling you country of origin. Good example wanted to compare Wago connectors for wire size ,voltage & ampere. One listing only stated 12 guage wire but going to Wago site found they were listed for believe it was #18 to #12 wire.
Click to expand...
Amazon sells knockoff Wago connectors as well, not clearly labeled. Sure you were getting originals?
 
E

Elect117

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
Engineer E.E. P.E.
The issue is that non-listed equipment can still be approved by the AHJ. For example UL goes out and does a field evaluation on non-listed equipment. They test it and evaluate that it is safe and no different than normally listed equipment. The AHJ has the authority to approve it based on ULs (or similar laboratory's report).

If it was a law that selling non-listed equipment was a fine or some kind of offense than you will find a lot of people having issue with it.

I believe the better way to tackle the issue is to write a law that forces Amazon and distributors to verify advertising and product descriptions when related to construction and building safety. Or requires a contractor license number or engineering license with the state to purchase equipment or parts that require a licensed person install them. No different than if you had to sell copper. They are required to verify / keep notes on your license and where you got it from.

I could argue that is relevant for more than just building products but I don't spend much time on Amazon these days.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
rc/retired said:
Permits and inspections are required for HO projects in my town.

Ron
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where is the line drawn for what requires a permit and what doesn't?

There will always be smaller projects that slip by with no permit in most every locality.

Add an obvious addition that can be seen while simply driving by, any code authority can see that should they drive by and want to investigate further. Make one somewhat minor change inside that isn't seen from outside, the code official needs reasonable evidence to prove anything was in possible violation to even ask to see anything related to that.
 
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brycenesbitt

Senior Member
Location
United States
rc/retired said:
Permits and inspections are required for HO projects in my town.
Ron
Click to expand...
My local AHJ also.
They're reluctant to give out Solar permits to DIY,
but happily do heat pumps, EVSE, things like that, even with an express permit.
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But the new 2026 NEC will put a stop to that for EVSE:
624.4 Qualified Persons
Permanently installed electric vehicle power transfer system equipment shall be installed by qualified persons.
See NECA 413-2024, Standard for Installing and Maintaining Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE) or other ANSI approved installation standards.
Click to expand...
The definition is
Article 100: Qualified Person One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved.
Click to expand...


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What Amazon and other marketplace sellers are doing is selling PLUG AND CORD equipment that does not require a permit, often with fake UL labels, but certainly no valid testing by a NRTL. Power strips, lamps, EVSE, portable A/C, block heaters. That's in addition to equipment meant for install by qualified persons.
 
R

rc/retired

Senior Member
Location
Bellvue, Colorado
Occupation
Master Electrician/Inspector retired
kwired said:
where is the line drawn for what requires a permit and what doesn't?

There will always be smaller projects that slip by with no permit in most every locality.

Add an obvious addition that can be seen while simply driving by, any code authority can see that should they drive by and want to investigate further. Make one somewhat minor change inside that isn't seen from outside, the code official needs reasonable evidence to prove anything was in possible violation to even ask to see anything related to that.
Click to expand...
You are correct. The AHJ tried to require almost any type of work to be permitted. We sure as hell weren't going to follow people home from the big box stores just to see what they were doing.

Ron
 
James L

James L

Senior Member
Location
Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
Occupation
Electrician
Elect117 said:
Or requires a contractor license number or engineering license with the state to purchase equipment or parts that require a licensed person install them. No different than if you had to sell copper. They are required to verify / keep notes on your license and where you got it from.
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One problem with that is homeowners are allowed to pull a permit on their own property, and purchase all the materials for that work.

I remodeled my own kitchen last year on a homeowner's permit, and I did my own plumbing which included moving a gas line for the range.
 
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Elect117

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
Engineer E.E. P.E.
James L said:
One problem with that is homeowners are allowed to pull a permit on their own property, and purchase all the materials for that work.

I remodeled my own kitchen last year on a homeowner's permit, and I did my own plumbing which included moving a gas line for the range.
Click to expand...

Home Owners will always be able to permit their own projects. They are typically scrutinized.

You would still be able to purchase all the stuff you wanted since you are a electrician (so long as you are licensed one).

I was just implying that the DIYer that has no construction experience or knowledge should not be buying equipment they think will work for their project.

I was taking a stab at a law that might increase their safety and hopefully save them money on purchasing the wrong stuff. Though, it could be argued that adding a middle man of a qualified person might increase costs and only provide a small amount of increased saftey. Hell, look at some of the projects getting stamped by engineers. I swear some people just sell their souls.
 
Seven-Delta-FortyOne

Seven-Delta-FortyOne

Goin’ Down In Flames........
Location
Humboldt
Occupation
EC and GC
I think we need to get rid of a couple million laws before we talk about adding more

Those who really like them should come to California. I get some new bull**** regulation across my desk nearly every week, that I now have to waste time and money on dealing with it. And people wonder why nothing gets done anymore and why everything is so expensive.
 
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