fbhwt
Electrical Systems Inspector
- Location
- Spotsylvania,Virginia
- Occupation
- Electrical Systems Inspector
Anybody have any comments on Infrared Imaging of electrical equipment?
Thermography
- Thread starter fbhwt
- Start date
- Status
websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Re: Thermography
Very useful in industrial and commercial applications.
Very useful in industrial and commercial applications.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Thermography
Yes, its really cool! (no pun intended)
I have got to "play" with a real nice IR scope with the local wastewater utility company. They perform IR imaging at their master pump stations. Its quite fantastic to see all the thermal characteristics of a motor and pump assembly as it starts and comes under a load.
I personally have a small IR thermometer which works really great too. People tend to believe more that there is a problem when you can show them a 100 degree temperature difference between lugs on a panelboard.
Yes, its really cool! (no pun intended)
I have got to "play" with a real nice IR scope with the local wastewater utility company. They perform IR imaging at their master pump stations. Its quite fantastic to see all the thermal characteristics of a motor and pump assembly as it starts and comes under a load.
I personally have a small IR thermometer which works really great too. People tend to believe more that there is a problem when you can show them a 100 degree temperature difference between lugs on a panelboard.
marissa2
Senior Member
- Location
- Connecticut
Re: Thermography
It will show if there are any loose connections or overloaded breakers.
Lou
It will show if there are any loose connections or overloaded breakers.
Lou
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Thermography
I used it in my Navy days, so the technology is not new. I also recall one utility that used it for trending purposes. It is far superior to using a screwdriver to periodically check the tightness of connections. It can also show you components that are overheating (e.g., motors or control power transformers).
I used it in my Navy days, so the technology is not new. I also recall one utility that used it for trending purposes. It is far superior to using a screwdriver to periodically check the tightness of connections. It can also show you components that are overheating (e.g., motors or control power transformers).
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Thermography
We have what I am told is a $50K IR imaging camera system and a couple of guys took an 80 hour course on that and other equipment.
I got to play around with it and I was amazed, when some one moves from one place on the concrete floor you could see the heat prints left by their feet.
I pointed it at traffic stopping for a red light and you could see who's brakes where applying equally.
It also quickly became apparent that in the hands of an unscrupulous operator the smallest problems can be made to appear as melt down imminent.
We have what I am told is a $50K IR imaging camera system and a couple of guys took an 80 hour course on that and other equipment.
I got to play around with it and I was amazed, when some one moves from one place on the concrete floor you could see the heat prints left by their feet.
I pointed it at traffic stopping for a red light and you could see who's brakes where applying equally.
It also quickly became apparent that in the hands of an unscrupulous operator the smallest problems can be made to appear as melt down imminent.
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
Re: Thermography
The firm I work for utilizes IR cameras on a daily basis. We have been involved with IR from the early days (20 plus years). At one time there was no competition, now three are tons contractors doing IR.
If you get involved buy good equipment, check out the software, use a certified Tech that is also a competent licensed electrician.
When we complete an IR we beat the non-electrical contractor (IR only contractors) by completing a complete NEC complaint/IR survey, In addition the repairs (IR and NEC violations) are a big money maker.
If you have any tech questions please contact me.
The firm I work for utilizes IR cameras on a daily basis. We have been involved with IR from the early days (20 plus years). At one time there was no competition, now three are tons contractors doing IR.
If you get involved buy good equipment, check out the software, use a certified Tech that is also a competent licensed electrician.
When we complete an IR we beat the non-electrical contractor (IR only contractors) by completing a complete NEC complaint/IR survey, In addition the repairs (IR and NEC violations) are a big money maker.
If you have any tech questions please contact me.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Thermography
Bob
You are right about manipulating the image to make it look worse than it may be. I was lucky enough to work with a good tech with this equipment. He showed me the good and bad with these units. They really are cool to work with.
A company that has the work and utilizes the technology whether inhouse or rental or hiring out, can increase the bottom line quite nicely.
Pierre
[ May 28, 2004, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Bob
You are right about manipulating the image to make it look worse than it may be. I was lucky enough to work with a good tech with this equipment. He showed me the good and bad with these units. They really are cool to work with.
A company that has the work and utilizes the technology whether inhouse or rental or hiring out, can increase the bottom line quite nicely.
Pierre
[ May 28, 2004, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Re: Thermography
This instrument is quite easily to use need not to have technician.The good reason for this to use are that it easily locate loose connection in a bus bars, overheating (due to loose or over current),sometimes show cable stress in control box/terminal box due to wire looping/bend most specially in big cable or motor terminal box.One thing I like to use this in a switch boar/distribution board is that you can easily detect how big the unbalance current there is by showing the heat/imaging.Generally it show loose or overcurrent in the bus bars.
This instrument is quite easily to use need not to have technician.The good reason for this to use are that it easily locate loose connection in a bus bars, overheating (due to loose or over current),sometimes show cable stress in control box/terminal box due to wire looping/bend most specially in big cable or motor terminal box.One thing I like to use this in a switch boar/distribution board is that you can easily detect how big the unbalance current there is by showing the heat/imaging.Generally it show loose or overcurrent in the bus bars.
charlie tuna
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Thermography
i have been a certified thermographer since 1989 and mainly perform annual testing for our customers in large office buildings in south florida. first of all - the problems we have found prior to failures would have cost ten times the cost of the testing. it is very important for the operator to know what is supposed to be hot and what is not! too many times we have been called to confirm problems found by others like control relays - chiller heaters - motor control coils - and many branch circuit breakers. we are really looking for big equipment problems - motor disconnects - bus duct un-torqued joints - switchgear buses - large circuit breakers. but a breaker that is loaded to a constant 80 per cent load is gonna be "hot" - you must balance load vs heat from personnel expieriance. the biggest area we come across are elevator disconnect switches. every elevator contractor should have this area looked at or train one of their men to infrared their equipment. the disconnect is not actually their responsibility - but many times they are the cause of many serious elevator problems that went on for years before we were called. many of the buildings we perform annual testing for get a rebate from their insurance carrier that more than pays for the scan. you must have good equipment and be able to see then entire scope of the equipment looked at to determine problem areas. but "infrared scanning works" thats for sure!!! the buildings that we have been scanning for ten or twelve years continually have less and less problems each year. 55 story building had 80 problems in 1989. today's scans on the same building is down to eight and the scan costs less because there are less problems to document. i have $38k in my equipment and it has payed for itself and at the same time saved my clients many dollars in shutdown emergency work....
i have been a certified thermographer since 1989 and mainly perform annual testing for our customers in large office buildings in south florida. first of all - the problems we have found prior to failures would have cost ten times the cost of the testing. it is very important for the operator to know what is supposed to be hot and what is not! too many times we have been called to confirm problems found by others like control relays - chiller heaters - motor control coils - and many branch circuit breakers. we are really looking for big equipment problems - motor disconnects - bus duct un-torqued joints - switchgear buses - large circuit breakers. but a breaker that is loaded to a constant 80 per cent load is gonna be "hot" - you must balance load vs heat from personnel expieriance. the biggest area we come across are elevator disconnect switches. every elevator contractor should have this area looked at or train one of their men to infrared their equipment. the disconnect is not actually their responsibility - but many times they are the cause of many serious elevator problems that went on for years before we were called. many of the buildings we perform annual testing for get a rebate from their insurance carrier that more than pays for the scan. you must have good equipment and be able to see then entire scope of the equipment looked at to determine problem areas. but "infrared scanning works" thats for sure!!! the buildings that we have been scanning for ten or twelve years continually have less and less problems each year. 55 story building had 80 problems in 1989. today's scans on the same building is down to eight and the scan costs less because there are less problems to document. i have $38k in my equipment and it has payed for itself and at the same time saved my clients many dollars in shutdown emergency work....
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
Re: Thermography
Wyedelta
You state
This instrument is quite easily to use need not to have technician
True and romex is easy to install and you need not be an electrician to install. But if you want it done right and efficiently one needs to know what they are doing.
In addition hot is not always hot, a certified thermographer can determine whether an item is a discrepancy or not; that is, is the device operating within design limits, by utilizing the temperature of a item, type of item and load. Trending items overtime is better performed by a certified thermographer, one with an undersstanding of what they are doing.
Training, education and an understanding of what one is doing lead to a better industry for us all.
Wyedelta
You state
This instrument is quite easily to use need not to have technician
True and romex is easy to install and you need not be an electrician to install. But if you want it done right and efficiently one needs to know what they are doing.
In addition hot is not always hot, a certified thermographer can determine whether an item is a discrepancy or not; that is, is the device operating within design limits, by utilizing the temperature of a item, type of item and load. Trending items overtime is better performed by a certified thermographer, one with an undersstanding of what they are doing.
Training, education and an understanding of what one is doing lead to a better industry for us all.
charlie tuna
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Thermography
john brian is right on the money! when i got into infrared in 1989 the training class i attended was about 80 per cent roofers. the only electrical application students were utility companies. i must admit, they tought us how the camera worked - how not to get confused with types of reflections - and it's basic applications. most of what i know is what i've learnt in the field. to begin with i was too critical, especially with branch circuits. when you look at a two pole thirty amp breaker feeding a a/c unit running at full load it looks like it's gonna melt! the use of infrared isn't for branch circuits - it's for feeders-disconnects-contactors-switchgear-bus duct-tap boxes-big stuff. infrared testing is expensive - i've been doing many of the same buildings for fourteen years. that stupid thirty amp breaker looks hot year after year--but it hasn't shut the building down! and this breaker has a temperature rise of 40 degrees! but when you find a 4000 amp bus duct with a temperature rise of 2 1/2 degrees on a joint you better watch out! it gets a little hairy when your standing there with the building manager and chief engineer of a 55 story building and explain to them they have a major problem inside this nice-shiny-new looking-bus duct. they say "but it doesn't feel real hot" and "it looks ok" and "the replacement parts cost $36,000." and "it'll require after hours installation". they order the parts,schedual the work, and you shut it down and take a sawzall and start cutting into the duct----thats when it gets hairy!!!! thats when you "thank god" for expieriance!!!
unbalanced loading is a problem we see and you need to know it's there as you scan. usually, it's an engineering problem where the same panel scheduals are used over and over on tenant spaces. example- every panel starts out with circuits 1 and 2 feeding the office copier--and there is eight tenants on a floor - you see some unbalance on the floor tap box-then you go down to the next floor-the same thing-well six floors down you begin to see the loading on the bus duct showing warmer on those two phases-and when you get to the main switchgear it increases even more. but, you can't use infrared to balance loads, only to know you have some. ampmeters or data recorders are the tool for that. i did one roof scan for a building engineer who had a building they were fighting roof leaks for years and couldn't control. they were going to loose a major tenant over it. this roof was full of equipment and had hundreds of roof penatrations. it was near the miami airport and i took some real neat pictures of jets landing on infrared. just before dark we began looking at the roof with our camera. each leak looked like a big puddle of water with the hottest point being the point of water entry, like a bolt someone had stepped on and buried below the roof coating or a support bracket to an a/c unit. we marked eight leaks with spray paint. the roofer repair them and that was the end of their problems. and the beginning of mine-that roofer hounded me for two years about "just this one building - please -pretty please! i was not into roof scans - hauling that camera up through roof hatches - working after hours - getting paid by roofers? but it certainly works! i did one other roof for the city of coral gables on some historic building as a favor to save it from damage - there we not only found roof leaks as the problem but also many wall leaks that they were blaming on the roof! we actually provide infrared services to buildings that save money by the re-bate they get from their insurance company. they laugh and say "this is a no brainer" and instantly put it in their yearly budget. and when i tell them i'm gonna retire i hear "but who's gonna do our infrared"!!
john brian is right on the money! when i got into infrared in 1989 the training class i attended was about 80 per cent roofers. the only electrical application students were utility companies. i must admit, they tought us how the camera worked - how not to get confused with types of reflections - and it's basic applications. most of what i know is what i've learnt in the field. to begin with i was too critical, especially with branch circuits. when you look at a two pole thirty amp breaker feeding a a/c unit running at full load it looks like it's gonna melt! the use of infrared isn't for branch circuits - it's for feeders-disconnects-contactors-switchgear-bus duct-tap boxes-big stuff. infrared testing is expensive - i've been doing many of the same buildings for fourteen years. that stupid thirty amp breaker looks hot year after year--but it hasn't shut the building down! and this breaker has a temperature rise of 40 degrees! but when you find a 4000 amp bus duct with a temperature rise of 2 1/2 degrees on a joint you better watch out! it gets a little hairy when your standing there with the building manager and chief engineer of a 55 story building and explain to them they have a major problem inside this nice-shiny-new looking-bus duct. they say "but it doesn't feel real hot" and "it looks ok" and "the replacement parts cost $36,000." and "it'll require after hours installation". they order the parts,schedual the work, and you shut it down and take a sawzall and start cutting into the duct----thats when it gets hairy!!!! thats when you "thank god" for expieriance!!!
unbalanced loading is a problem we see and you need to know it's there as you scan. usually, it's an engineering problem where the same panel scheduals are used over and over on tenant spaces. example- every panel starts out with circuits 1 and 2 feeding the office copier--and there is eight tenants on a floor - you see some unbalance on the floor tap box-then you go down to the next floor-the same thing-well six floors down you begin to see the loading on the bus duct showing warmer on those two phases-and when you get to the main switchgear it increases even more. but, you can't use infrared to balance loads, only to know you have some. ampmeters or data recorders are the tool for that. i did one roof scan for a building engineer who had a building they were fighting roof leaks for years and couldn't control. they were going to loose a major tenant over it. this roof was full of equipment and had hundreds of roof penatrations. it was near the miami airport and i took some real neat pictures of jets landing on infrared. just before dark we began looking at the roof with our camera. each leak looked like a big puddle of water with the hottest point being the point of water entry, like a bolt someone had stepped on and buried below the roof coating or a support bracket to an a/c unit. we marked eight leaks with spray paint. the roofer repair them and that was the end of their problems. and the beginning of mine-that roofer hounded me for two years about "just this one building - please -pretty please! i was not into roof scans - hauling that camera up through roof hatches - working after hours - getting paid by roofers? but it certainly works! i did one other roof for the city of coral gables on some historic building as a favor to save it from damage - there we not only found roof leaks as the problem but also many wall leaks that they were blaming on the roof! we actually provide infrared services to buildings that save money by the re-bate they get from their insurance company. they laugh and say "this is a no brainer" and instantly put it in their yearly budget. and when i tell them i'm gonna retire i hear "but who's gonna do our infrared"!!
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