THHN vs. THWN-2

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I know that this has been discussed before, but is the inside of conduit on a roof or otherwise outdoors considered a wet location, i.e., does the conditions of use derate calculation have to start with the 75 degree ampacity for THHN conductors?
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
One more question: Is THWN (not THWN-2) rated at 90 degrees in wet locations? I can't find THWN (not -2) specs on line; is it even available?
 

Zee

Senior Member
Location
CA
Bit of a tangent: do I need outdoor rated wire nuts (greasy ones) INSIDE a j-box on a roof?
(Weatherproof Bell box, gasketed cover, under solar panel, weep holes drilled)

Sorry for thread creep.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
One more question: Is THWN (not THWN-2) rated at 90 degrees in wet locations? I can't find THWN (not -2) specs on line; is it even available?
If you made wire, would you want to make a second, inferior version?
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Bit of a tangent: do I need outdoor rated wire nuts (greasy ones) INSIDE a j-box on a roof?
(Weatherproof Bell box, gasketed cover, under solar panel, weep holes drilled)
I don't think so, as enclosures are different from raceways (think exterior panels), but it couldn't hurt.
 
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infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
If you made wire, would you want to make a second, inferior version?
Southwire makes THWN without the -2 in sizes smaller than #8.

SIMpull THHN® Copper Wire
600 Volts. Copper Conductor. Thermoplastic Insulation/Nylon Sheath, Heat, Moisture, Gasoline and Oil Resistant II. All sizes rated both THHN and either THWN (sizes 14, 12, and 10 AWG) or THWN-2 (sizes 8 AWG and larger and 14, 12, 10 AWG in SIMpull BARREL™ or SIMpull ® CoilPAK™ configurations). Also Rated MTW and AWM. SIMpull ® Technology for Easier Pulling.
 

Carultch

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
If you made wire, would you want to make a second, inferior version?
The inferior versions of the wire are previous generations of the same family of products, before the modern THWN-2 rating became available. THWN without the -2, is 75C wet, and THHN is 90C dry, and the inferior wire usually carried these two ratings together. The -2 suffix gives it a rating of 90C in the three most common environments (i.e. wet/damp/dry). THWN-2 automatically implies both THHN and THWN without the -2. You'll see all three designations on the same print legend, despite the fact that THWN-2 already implies the other two. Some datasheets have smaller sizes (e.g. #10 and smaller) carrying only the inferior rating (THHN/THWN only), while you don't get the full THWN-2 rating until you have larger sizes.

From what I've typically seen on datasheets, this wire also has gasoline/oil resistance when the nylon jacket is intact, but it's limited to 75C in these environments. Perhaps a "-3" suffix could come in the future that gives it a universal 90C rating.
 

mikeames

Senior Member
Location
Gaithersburg MD
Occupation
Teacher - Master Electrician - 2017 NEC
Yes, inside a conduit outdoors is considered a wet environment.
One note: If its outdoors but not in a wet location then the interior is not considered wet. The top side of a roof would obviously be, but the underside of a outdoor pavilion roof may be a damp location.

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pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
One note: If its outdoors but not in a wet location then the interior is not considered wet. The top side of a roof would obviously be, but the underside of a outdoor pavilion roof may be a damp location.

View attachment 2573054
Since what is a wet location is undefined in the NEC it leaves the decision to the AHJ. I can see there being AHJs who don't split hairs and just say all outdoor raceway is in a wet location. That's what I assume, I don't see there being a win by sectioning up a raceway into outside wet and outside dry divisions. I take a wholistic approach. If I have a conduit on the roof and that transitions to running under an eve then the dry section under the eve will most likely be wet also, since water runs downhill.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
If it's EMT that goes straight from a clearly wet location (say roof) to a possibly only damp location (say, under the eave) I'm going to still call the latter a wet location. Because unfortunately I've see enough water get into EMT on the roof to know it's going to flow right into the EMT under the eave, and for that matter into the interior of the building if that's where the EMT goes. And it can totally fill up with water depending on how it's routed. Without a box or fitting that will drain at the location where a transition occurs, I think one is not in a good position to argue with an AHJ.

Frankly, there are some relevant code sections here which are in my experience almost universally ignored, such as 225.22 and 300.5(G) and 300.7(A).
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
The specific question I was asking appears to be a moot point; I have not found anyone who makes THHN only wire. A client I deal with claimed to have some that they wanted to use for a PV system, but they could not document it.
 
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