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bikeindy

bikeindy

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis IN
Inspection today on a simple screened porch installed ceiling fan wire switch two floods two receptacles on new circuit from panel. Inspector writs up. No ground on metal box, finish electrical. no code reference at all.. contractor calls me and is wondering what this is about I have no idea I finished the rough. the pancake box was left hanging for install by carpenters when the put up the rough saw ceiling so My wire was just stuck in the box with a push tab gromet. HE WANTED THE GROUND WIRE CONNECTED TO THE BOX AT ROUGH! you have got to be kidding me! My opinion is he was disappointed no one was there to say hi to him.
 
Inspectors in my area would write that one up also. the arguement is that they will be unable to verify that ground screw is installed on trim without remving a fixture. It's one of those things I got used to years ago and just automatically do today. they will write you up on a rough wall inspection of a commercial job if grounding pigtails are not installed in switch and recept baoxes as well where I live.
 
I ran into an inspector who said the same thing to me a week ago. He still passed the job, but he said that in the future I should have all the grounding connections made at rough in.
 
how dare he fail you for a box not being grounded, I would have also failed you for the fan box not being attached at the rough, I have seen to many fan boxes attached with sheetrock screws.
 
mpd said:
how dare he fail you for a box not being grounded, I would have also failed you for the fan box not being attached at the rough, I have seen to many fan boxes attached with sheetrock screws.
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The contractor has to put in his ceiling before I can attach the box to it and here it is common practice on a pancake box to just stub your wire in 1" or so and bend it over and stable it up out of the way of the drywallers rotozip. making up grounds in other boxes is fine all that is accomplished here is more work for others. He did pass it when I called him and explained, but in the city I was working this is standard procedure for this type of install.
 
bikeindy said:
My opinion is he was disappointed no one was there to say hi to him.
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What would that have todo with anything?

I like it better when there is no one there to bother me during my inspection.

BTW: I would have written it up as well.
 
bikeindy........I am an Indy Inspector and Electrical Contractor.. HI!... and yes, I would write it up. I think 250.148 NOTE: "I do not have my NEC handy"! Just what memory I have left.
 
110.11 Deteriorating Agents. Unless identified for use in the operating environment, no conductors or equipment shall be located in damp or wet locations; where exposed to gases, fumes, vapors, liquids, or other agents that have a deteriorating effect on the conductors or equipment; or where exposed to excessive temperatures.
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Equipment identified only as ?dry locations,? ?Type 1,? or ?indoor use only? shall be protected against permanent damage from the weather during building construction.
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I consider drywallers with rotozips to be a deteriorating agent.
I consider rain to be a good reason not to strip the sheathing off the romex of my metallic outdoor boxes, too.

It's been discussed before, but I'll say it again: Seeing a box at the rough is no guarantee that the box you're seeing will be the same one present at the trim. I install ground screws in all my boxes on the rough in masonry (to prevent the ground screw from being filled with mortar). When I return on the trim, I see my boxes in the bushes, ground screws intact, and masonry boxes cast into rock forms installed on the wall, with no bushings or ground screws present.

And yes, I've started backcharging the stupid masons for my time pecking out their mortar from the box, installing a grommet, and getting my ground screw in. :)

So, my opinion continues to be that requiring ground screws to be utilized on the rough is futile. And people I respect greatly disagree with me. Fortunately, I "get away with it" where I work.

250.148 can be enforced on the trim, there's no timeline for it. :)
 
georgestolz said:
So, my opinion continues to be that requiring ground screws to be utilized on the rough is futile. And people I respect greatly disagree with me. Fortunately, I "get away with it" where I work.

250.148 can be enforced on the trim, there's no timeline for it. :)
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My point exactly! and it was agreed by the inspector once I said hi. and he gave no code reference when he wrote it up did he really think I wouldn't attach the box to the ceiling? he has to inspect the framing before the ceiling goes in and therefore I had no choice but to wait due to the type of cieling and mounting we were going to do and it was spelled out on the plan.
 
triphase said:
bikeindy........I am an Indy Inspector and Electrical Contractor.. HI!... and yes, I would write it up. I think 250.148 NOTE: "I do not have my NEC handy"! Just what memory I have left.
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Your an Inspector for the city of Indianapolis? anyway this was in Carmel. oh HI!
 
bikeindy said:
mpd said:
how dare he fail you for a box not being grounded, I would have also failed you for the fan box not being attached at the rough, I have seen to many fan boxes attached with sheetrock screws.
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The contractor has to put in his ceiling before I can attach the box to it and here it is common practice on a pancake box to just stub your wire in 1" or so and bend it over and stable it up out of the way of the drywallers rotozip. making up grounds in other boxes is fine all that is accomplished here is more work for others. He did pass it when I called him and explained, but in the city I was working this is standard procedure for this type of install.
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I would fail the box for not being attached or for being attached with drywall screws. But if the electrician called me before the inspection and told me about the box[es] that couldn't be mounted yet but that he would take care of later, then I would pass it.

Communication is very good. Even a message left on my machine would be fine.

As far as the grounding of the box goes, I know what you mean about being concerned about the rotozip. Those guys are brutal ! I'm not as concerned with the bonding of the metal box because, unless the fixture gets demoed, noone will come in contact with the box.

But there is one inspector in my department that fails contractors for not having their boxes bonded on the rough. When contractors only put an inch into the box and leave a loop to pull in later, we tell them the slice open the one inch end of the sheath and bend the very end of the ground around the bonding screw. When the light installor gets there, he won't be able to completely ignore or forget the ground because he'll have to disconnect it to pull more thru. The light installor takes on responsibility for rebonding the box when he disconnects to pull more slack. If he doesn't have to disconnect, it's easier to ignore the ground wire and not see the box bonding as his problem.

David
 
dnem said:
I would fail the box for not being attached or for being attached with drywall screws. But if the electrician called me before the inspection and told me about the box[es] that couldn't be mounted yet but that he would take care of later, then I would pass it.

Communication is very good. Even a message left on my machine would be fine.

As far as the grounding of the box goes, I know what you mean about being concerned about the rotozip. Those guys are brutal ! I'm not as concerned with the bonding of the metal box because, unless the fixture gets demoed, noone will come in contact with the box.

But there is one inspector in my department that fails contractors for not having their boxes bonded on the rough. When contractors only put an inch into the box and leave a loop to pull in later, we tell them the slice open the one inch end of the sheath and bend the very end of the ground around the bonding screw. When the light installor gets there, he won't be able to completely ignore or forget the ground because he'll have to disconnect it to pull more thru. The light installor takes on responsibility for rebonding the box when he disconnects to pull more slack. If he doesn't have to disconnect, it's easier to ignore the ground wire and not see the box bonding as his problem.

David
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In Carmel IN there is only one permit for the entire job. the contractor calls for the inspection and it is his responcibility to be there for the Inspector. and this contractor is 99% of the time. If your going to write something up put a reference on it. when the contractor called me I had no clue what he was talking about because the inspector didn't clarify what he was failing. Do you really think making a guy do something twice makes it safer? your joking right? he takes responciblity when he shows up for work to do things right and bonding at finish is as right as bonding at rough. this circuit is not even energized.
 
bikeindy said:
In Carmel IN there is only one permit for the entire job. the contractor calls for the inspection and it is his responcibility to be there for the Inspector. and this contractor is 99% of the time. If your going to write something up put a reference on it. when the contractor called me I had no clue what he was talking about because the inspector didn't clarify what he was failing. Do you really think making a guy do something twice makes it safer? your joking right? he takes responciblity when he shows up for work to do things right and bonding at finish is as right as bonding at rough. this circuit is not even energized.
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There are some important differences in the county that inspect for. It's very common for the builder to hire a separate lighting contractor that installs all of the lights. And the employees that are actually doing the installations are among the sloppiest and least qualified electrical workers that we come across. We have spot checked and caught these guys not bonding metal fixtures a number of times. [And I believe not bonding the fixture, that anyone can touch at anytime, is much more dangerous than not bonding the metal box, that is inaccessible.]

Another important difference is that 99% of our residential inspections are done without anyone from the electrical contractor on site. I rarely am met by an electrician on either rough or final.

So the situation that I'm most commonly in is very different than what you usually experience.

David
 
Lets see, today I spent about an hour and a half before the inspector arrived on my current project installing 10-32 machine screws and pigtails into " existing " receptacle and switch boxes in a poured in place concrete condo I am remodeling. The old 4sq boxes from the seventy's had no tapped hole for #10/32 screws. Macmikemethod: drive a tek self tapping sheet metal screw into back of box to make a starter hole. Reverse, and remove sheet metal screw. Use 3/16 tap-con bit to drill out concrete in back of new hole for about 3/8". Step 3 - insert 10/32 tap into cordless drill, tap out hole. Step 4 install new pigtail. Step 5 passed rough inspection with flying colors.
 
What's the point of a "rough" inspection then? Why not just call for a final?

I thought that WAS the point of a rough in inspect? So that an inspector COULD see the installation, PRIOR to cover-up?
 
By the way! If in a commercial application, and the BOX is properly grounded, and the fixture is fed via an approved means, the fixture WILL be grounded in a legally acceptable NEC manor, VIA the "whip".

This is ALSO why Nm cable is NOT allowed above a "lay in cieling".

Luckily,- people with more experience that WE seem to have, have already taken these things into consideration! LOL
 
I don't understand why the box could not be mounted?? There may not be a desire to , but it certainly can be. It would fail in the area I work as well.
 
electric_instructor said:
By the way! If in a commercial application, and the BOX is properly grounded, and the fixture is fed via an approved means, the fixture WILL be grounded in a legally acceptable NEC manor, VIA the "whip".

This is ALSO why Nm cable is NOT allowed above a "lay in cieling".

Luckily,- people with more experience that WE seem to have, have already taken these things into consideration! LOL
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I don't think bonding / grounding has anything to do with the use or not of NM above a drop ceiling in a commercial application.
 
1793 said:
I don't think bonding / grounding has anything to do with the use or not of NM above a drop ceiling in a commercial application.
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I agree. This is in the code for no other reason than a happy medium between the steel raceway people and the cable people. :(
 
In general, I'd fail a rough without grounding screw installed and wire terminated. One box as you described, probably not. Seems like the only problem was lack of communication. I'd just call you after passing to make sure you were aware of the situation. Incidentally, if you just left wire poking through and cut in box on finish, I'd have nothing to say. I'd assume you'd install it properly when the time came. I have gone on finishes and noticed very occasionally that one of my guys did not ground box on rough. Obviously I then ground it. I have no doubt that some of my guys would not notice it and box would not get grounded.

John
 
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