This may sound silly, but...

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Henry Neill

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Location
New Orleans, LA
...not to drag any on-topic business into this section, but I just realized I have a (probably) dumb question. I make chandeliers, and while I technically know how to install one, I'm by no means an electrician, though I do deal with electricity. Having said that, very little of the NEC really pertains directly to what I do, and while it's been essential to my work at times, I just started to wonder if I'm going to run into any problems if the latest (and only) cycle I've got is 2005. If what I need to refer to in the Code is basically restricted to lighting, is there enough of a difference for me to spend the money on the most recent cycle or can I sleep easy knowing I'm pretty much safe with what I've got. The only time I'm consulting it is if my boss has designed something particularly extravagant and therefore seemingly difficult to hang and wire and I need to make sure everything's going to end up installable and UL/ETL/NEC compliant, should we be upgrading every time if we're utterly unconcerned with things like wiring a house or running anything underground or dealing with anything more complex than "deliver 120 volts to these bulbs". Hopefully this doesn't make me out to be an idiot, but I've never dealt much with anything fluorescent, I know what multiphase means but I've never actually dealt with it directly, we're not dealing with hazardous or outdoor anything, like I said, we're just lighting up incandescent bulbs. The NEC is an extremely useful resource, but by no means does my job require thorough and accredited familiarization with the Code in its entirety (though I wouldn't mind getting there one day...part of why I registered is to informally familiarize myself with it as much as possible, as I've already begun to).

Also, just because I really am curious, I make the chandeliers and try to make them as easy to install as possible...it seems like this forum is full of people that install ridiculous fixtures on the regular, I'd like to get any feedback you may have as to what is and is not easy to deal with, I'm always trying to reduce the number of calls from electricians installing our fixtures essentially just asking "what the hell?". I try to include intensely detailed instructions on how to hang something if it has to be sent in pieces and assembled on site, I've honestly never heard from anyone regarding any of this, so I suppose it's working. Either that or there are plenty of electricians who hate me and don't know who to complain to.

Also if anyone's ever installed any Julie Neill Designs fixtures, I'd love to hear about that, because I made it, and I want to hear the criticism if it's warranted. I'm always trying to do it better.
 
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augie47

augie47

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Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Your interest in assuring your products are Code compliant and your interest in customer feedback are commendable.
No doubt it might be to your benefit to have knowledge of Code changes that might effect the installation of your product but from a Code standpoint most involved would be most interested that the product be U.L. or some other NRTL approved. AS i understand, the requirement that your fixture meets the requirements of the listing agency trumps any Code issue.
That said, changes in mounting requiremets or changes in the Energy Codes might weill have an efffect on your product.
 
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John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
I have installed my share of over size fixtures. One pet peeve on a hanging chandlier is when the nut that holds the canopy

up is too small to fit over the chain. Or the chain is too big. Some chandliers come with a 5 ft length of chain. Well the cieling

is 18 ft tall. So the lighting supplier throws in any chain that is similar but not an exact match. The brass color might be off or

the chain is a different weight or shape of the links will not match.

Hanging heavy fixtures it is a PITA when you aren't supplied with everything.

Anyway we end up making it work with parts from the van.
 
iwire

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
Henry Neill said:
I make chandeliers, and while I technically know how to install one, I'm by no means an electrician, though I do deal with electricity. Having said that, very little of the NEC really pertains directly to what I do,
Click to expand...

Are they listed?

Because that is an NEC requirement that applies to any of us that try to install your fixtures.
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
iwire said:
Are they listed?

Because that is an NEC requirement that applies to any of us that try to install your fixtures.
Click to expand...

I have not found any note of listing on the web site. If they are listed a note to that effect would be worthwhile in the catalog and the home page.

I also moved he thread from the Chat area as this is lighting related so I put it in the lighting forum.
 
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Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
I have installed many chandeliers where the nut will not slide down over the chain. I am guessing by John's comment that this may be an issue. There are larger canopy holes as well as nipples and nuts for this to work. Usually a problem with the heavy duty chains.
 
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Henry Neill

Member
Location
New Orleans, LA
We're ETL listed even if the site doesn't explicitly say so, I just checked and it does but you have to dig DEEP to find it...we're actually in the process of overhauling our website with a new web designer, our website is very much in the past (like the industry itself ;)), I'll be the first to admit. I'm basically the guy that makes sure everything leaves our shop in total compliance with our ETL listing, anything other than that I can only suggest (though I suggested our new web guy, a friend of mine, if I need an ETL logo on that site, boy howdy I can get one by tomorrow), I'm really in the production area and don't deal directly with any sort of publicity. Thanks for the input though, I suppose it would make sense that we make that blatantly known to the public...our original reason for getting certified was to make some chandeliers for the House of Blues in Dallas, but ever since then it's rarely been an issue as far as the customer seems to be concerned, we've only done a few "big" public jobs (hotels, event venues, etc.), where it's obviously a requirement. It may not be high on the list of priorities for your standard rich couple wanting something ridiculous in their staircase or closet, don't get me started (it still complies, but they don't know or care), but I think having that displayed prominently on some portion of our site is pretty crucial, now that you've made me think about it. I'm good friends with our new web designer, I'll make sure it's not hard to find our listing info/marks. I just checked our site and while it does mention our listing somewhere, one has to dig deep. I'll let someone know to make it as visible as possible, thanks for all the advice...we're a crazy company founded on a divorce 13 years ago, we make lovely lighting, but there's often a discrepancy between what's "utterly elegant" and "modern, UL/ETL/Whatever, it's all the same standards, wiring" and one of my myriad duties is to bridge that treacherous gap.

In response to John120/240, one of the things I pride ourselves on is the fact that everything that leaves our shop comes with at least 12 feet of chain and wire unless the customer specifies otherwise, and while it sounds sort of crazy due to the tendency of the finish on painted chains to rub off over time, we do finish all our chains to match, be it the standard catalog chain or something else specified by the customer, we're not about to send out a bunch of mismatched parts and hope for the best...maybe once 10 years ago, but we've learned our innumerable lessons about how to do what we do (and we're always trying to do it better). I've yet to run into the canopy nut issue specifically, but there have definitely been some custom fixtures that have ridiculously non-standard canopies (sometimes 3 at a time per fixture with 4 fixtures intertwining with one another) and I have yet to run into an issue. All of our standard canopy nuts slip a standard chain easily, and if it doesn't, we make something work. I'm kind of a huge hermit and have no idea if anyone's ever heard of us, I've just been looking so long for a place to ask these questions and I finally found one. We basically serve up "luxury class" lighting and "luxury class" people tend to see the word "custom" and start to mangle and ruin our designs for the sake of feeling in control, aesthetics are totally out the window when it comes to DESIGNER POWER!!! Sorry for whining but I rarely get an opportunity. :eek:

I'm just really excited to be here because it's INCREDIBLY rare that I get a chance to chat with the people installing the fixtures I make, so the only information I have regarding installation is what I've gathered from some cursory tests conducted on a mock box installed between two ladders, I can only hope I'm sending clear instructions with our stranger pieces.

Regarding Dennis' post, that's definitely something I should look into...again, no complaints over the years but we're finally starting to get orders for things large enough to require really heavy welded chain to keep ETL happy, but like I said, I don't know how much of my lack of complaints is me doing things right or electricians just thinking "ah, this fool, somebody hold this up while I run out to the truck" and never bothering to tell us. If that's a regular thing, please do tell me, and even if it's just one lighting manufacturer out of many, at least I can sleep at night knowing I haven't pissed anyone off by doing my job.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
I have installed many custom fixtures and chandlers over the years one thing I find is the box requirements for the weight is often over looked by the manufacture, one chandler comes to mind was a Harley Davidson motor cycle made out of wrought iron that was over 300#, the instruction had me just mounting it to any common ceiling box, but as per code most only have a 30# to 50# rating and the 8/32s by no means would ever have been safe for that kind of weight, I wound up using a special fan box we used for some of Casablanca's more heavier fans, that required it to be bolted to a cross member of the trusses or a installed member, we also installed a safety cable to make sure it could never come down, with the kind of money that customers will be spending a suggestion of using a light lift would make the installation even easier as the box no longer supports the fixture and is supplied by the lift manufacture, at these weights the fixture in most cases should be engineered to be supported by the structure in some way and not just a box with 8/32 screws, I sure your NTRL should have a guidance on safely mounting heavy fixtures.

I feel as do many, that many of the engineers who design things have never tried to install what that they are designing, so it is kind of the thing that can look like it works on paper but in reality it won't, I think a shop or manufacture who has a mock building or just maybe a mock ceiling that they can use as a test bed to see first hand in how difficult the fixture will be to hang, and to make changes to make it easier on the end installer, the above chandler was hung by just me and a helper by using a wench in the attic through the knock out of the special box that was connected to a cable that was left with the fixture after it was hung actually it was used as the safety cable, a light lift would have made the job so much easier as most fixtures are installed after the drywall is done when we go to trim out the building, If known at the time of rough a lift could have been installed or special mounting if a lift is not used, the other problem is you do not always have access to the space above where the fixture will be mounted, and if this is not pointed out by the manufactures it will be left to us to tell the home owner that either drywall will have to be removed or the fixture can't be installed, not try to tell that to a home owner who just spent thousands on a custom fixture that in many cases is not returnable, they wont understand why it is not just a simple task of mounting it to a common box, so in the end it can cause us grief with the homeowner and can even cause us to loose any other work that may come in the future from this home owner.

So having more then a box suspended between two ladders, even maybe a mock ceiling with drywall to give and idea when we run into installing a fixture without access to the attic above so solutions to an installation can be worked out way before it is at a house after it has been drywalled leaving it up to us to try to find a way to hang it and keep the home owner happy at the same time, if a fixture needs special mounting that needs to be done on the rough before drywall is done, then the manufacture needs to spell this out to a customer who waits till the last minute to purchase the fixtures for a house as this is what is the norm around here.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
I would like to also point out as more and more states adopt energy codes such as California has, candelabra lamps are on their way out, a manufacture who gets a jump on designing chandlers around more efficient lighting methods such as LED, CFL, and or by using a single light source with fiber-optics will be ahead of the game when incandescents are phased out.

I myself changed out two chandlers that had candelabra type lamps in this house when I purchased it back in 2008 because I wanted all CFL lamps to save energy cost as our electric is very high per KWH, I simply found chandlers that accepted medium base lamps and use CFL's in them that are not directly visible as in hidden behind a frosted globe or glass cups.

I once thought about how to design a chandler that could use a single light source to distribute the light via fiber optics to fake flame tip candelabra lamps that would have a frosted coating that would make the fake lamp look as if it was a candelabra lamp that could mimic regular styles of chandlers,the theory works the same as they did with Christmas trees that used this method.
 
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jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
You are wise and considerate to think this way. I wish factory techs and designers would seek our feedback. Too much stuff out there is junk. Too much nonstandard hardware, odd colors, etc.

Design canopies to always nut/screw from bottom up, not on sides. Sides are difficult to work with some ceiling medallions. I hate medallions but that is another story.

If possible, a plug connector would be great for bigger & heavier fixtures. Install hanger, wire & secure canopy with hanger ring. Canopy with small female plug. Hang light chain on ring, adjust height. Cut wire to length, install male plug, plug into canopy. Much less awkward than holding heavy weight while working screws, etc. If extra heavy, the hanger should be what attaches to structure with long screws, cables, etc. Canopy screws & nuts equally heavy duty. Or let chain attach direct to box or bracket & canopy slide up.

Try to minimize decorative chains, streamers, etc. Tedious to put on, easily snagged, etc.

Use best quality sockets & hardware you can find. No one appreciates cheap sockets that crack the first year or a socket that seizes & jams bulbs. Major problem with candelabra bulbs. Good quality threaded rings, if used for mini shades. I have seen many of them that easily jam.

Be certain to keep your neutrals to shell, hots to pin. I have seen a few UL labeled lights with them in reverse. Keep the neutral on the ribbed side of lamp cord.

Keep nuts & bolts standard thread. 6-32, 8-32, 10-32, 10-24, 1/4x20, etc. These are easy to replace if lost. Please no 12x24, 4-40, 4-36, etc. Hard to find. Please no metric if you can help it. Still hard to find in some places.

If surfaces are easily scratched, perhaps a small tube of touch up paint?
 
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jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
John120/240 said:
What jmellc said plus: Sconce fixtures please make sure that the fixture mounting plate is big enough to cover the box that it

is mounted to.
Click to expand...


I recall some sconces on one job that would only fit over a 1 gang switch box. We had roughed in light boxes & had to get them out, patch the wall & use 1g cut in boxes. We were plenty irritated. A mfr should make sure that every light he makes fits a standard light box. Some lights will not work well with a switch box
 
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